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Feather Step International Style
Posted by quickstep
2/7/2007  6:48:00 PM
Jonathan. What are your thoughts on this. The Dancesport Championship from Australia televised on Tuesday. In the Amatuer Division there were many international top dancers competing. Watching the start of the Feather Step in both the semi final and the final. It was possible to count and wind back count another couple and so on. The couples I counted six in all. I only saw one couple do the normal Feather Step timing. That was a Chinese couple.They appeared to go into the Reverse Turn late. It even looked out of time. All the others did an introductory step on beat 1. with the remainder of the Feather all quicks, which makes the first step of the Feather a quick, instead of what is normaly a slow. The event was won by Germany`s top couple.
In your Learn the Dances. I love the clicking on the screen to get the big picture. Great.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by Anonymous
2/7/2007  6:59:00 PM
You still haven't figured it out, Quickstep.

The feather will carry over into the second measure exactly as far as the prep step carried into the first measure. Different couples may have different carryovers, but nobody dances with the abbreviated timing you accurse them of.

There is no shortening the feather to three quicks - if you actually time the interval, you will see that the feather gets a full four beats.

They just aren't beats 1-4 of the first measure.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by quickstep
2/7/2007  7:11:00 PM
I was asking Jonathan.
You Anonymous do not have a tape obviously. If you have you are incapable of counting. The four quicks are also being used after a Change of Direction which allows us to keep in phrase with the music and not dance on 34 12.
So that I know you understand. How would you do a Change of Direction into a Feather Step and be in phrase..Tell me or shut up..
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by Anonymous
2/7/2007  7:20:00 PM
"I was asking Jonathan."

Try doing some searching then and you'll see what he's already said on the subject.

"You Anonymous do not have a tape obviously. If you have you are incapable of counting."

Get yourself over to your old thread and look at the numbers, measured off of world-finalist competitors (the first being my best guess at who YOU were nominating as an example) that I posted.

Still trying to argue with those INDISPUTABLE FACTS???

"So that I know you understand. How would you do a Change of Direction into a Feather Step and be in phrase..Tell me or shut up.."

Quite tossing in extranoues issues to cover you own mistake.

For the recond, I would dance my last step of the COD (if going into a feather) essentially the same as my prep step when starting the dance.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by quickstep
2/7/2007  7:41:00 PM
Then you are on the wrong beat. And will enter your Reverse movement , what ever it may be on the incorrect beat. Lets make it simple. An Open Telemark. Surely you don`t deliberately dance it 3 4 1 2. How about a Double Reverse. In a class starting at the Double Reverse. The teacher doesn`t call out with the music the first step as 3 4. She says with the music 1 2. Doesn`t she. Then what are you doing dancing on 3 4. which will happen with your timing in the Change of Direction. You have such a lot to learn.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by Anonymous
2/7/2007  7:51:00 PM
"Then you are on the wrong beat. And will enter your Reverse movement , what ever it may be on the incorrect beat."

Well, I'm in good company with the likes of Mirko Gozzoli, and Andrew Sinkinson, and pretty much everyon else whose every won anything. All of us drift our last quick out well more than a beat - 1.5 beats at the short end, nearly two beats at the long end.

Ever considered that perhaps YOU are the ODD ONE OUT?

"Lets make it simple. An Open Telemark. Surely you don`t deliberately dance it 3 4 1 2.?

No, it would be closer to 234.5 But even that is far too crude to represent what actually happens. You were given real world measurements for the basic foxtrot figures on Jonathan, on your nominee and another top dancer. Why do you persist in IGNORING THEM?

"In a class starting at the Double Reverse."

A teacher whose students aren't yet ready to learn real-life foxtrot timing should probably not be trying to teach them how to do waltz figures in foxtrot time, but instead should be working with the classic foxtrot figures. Or were you talking about a waltz class? Waltz timing has a whole different basis of course, much closer step on the beat than is generally appropriate for foxtrot first and third steps.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by quickstep
2/8/2007  1:22:00 AM
Please explain 234.5. Do you mean the ladies timing which is different to the man`s for a Double Reverse in the Foxtrot... Ladies 12.3 and 4. Where does the 5 come from. You sometimes lose me.
At Level 1. The Double Reverse Spin is in the Foxtrot Syllabus as well as the Waltz. It is not in the Quickstep. Timing may be used only as stated in the technique book at level 1. It would seem after that you can please yourself in competition.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by Anonymous
2/8/2007  7:09:00 AM
"Please explain 234.5."

I mean that the first step of a feather might land closest to beat two, the second step right on beat three, and the third step on "beat four and a half"

But that's still a crude approximation. Suffient to demonstrate that you are grossly wrong, but not nearly as accurate as the timings of actual dancers that you were given.

Until you stop thinking of trying to step on any beat other than beat three, you just will never understand the foxtrot...
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by quickstep
2/9/2007  3:17:00 AM
What is the use of music playing if we are not going to dance to it. You can change the steps all you wish but you cannot change the music which is playing.
Slow is the first step, two beats. the next two steps are quicks. If I want to alter the timing to all quicks. Then I must use one beat, a quick on the introduction. If anybody can think of another way. Then lets hear it.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by GUEST
2/9/2007  6:21:00 AM
I understand your frustration while you are trying to learn the basic stuff. But as your dance progresses, you will learn it is possible playing with music.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by Anonymous
2/9/2007  6:25:00 AM
"What is the use of music playing if we are not going to dance to it. You can change the steps all you wish but you cannot change the music which is playing.
Slow is the first step, two beats. the next two steps are quicks. If I want to alter the timing to all quicks. Then I must use one beat, a quick on the introduction. If anybody can think of another way. Then lets hear it."

Quickstep, you simply do not understand the dance called "foxtrot"

It is not a RHYTHM dance, in which stepping on beats is stressed. Instead, it is a BODY FLIGHT dance, where we honor the music by moving our body (NOT OUR FEET) in time with it.

To do this, to fully reflect the trend of the music, we need a continuity of motion that is simply incompatible with placing the second quick on a beat.

WHICH IS WHY NOBODY PLACES THE SECOND QUICK ON BEAT FOUR. To put it there would NOT BE MUSICAL - it would reveal an obsession with feet that betrays an ignorance of the nature of this family of dances - which ARE NOT ABOUT THE FEET.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by Guest
2/9/2007  7:56:00 AM
Well-said!
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by quickstep
2/9/2007  12:31:00 PM
That doesn`t answer the question. If I arrive late on my second quick. What timing will I use on my Reverse Turn, The music is playing 1234 in that order. In a bar of 4/4 music we have four beats. You or nobody else can make it five or three..
If a competitor did wish to hold that third step and alter the timing.If this was to be followed by an Open Telemark they would syncopate the Telemark to, two and three, to come back to normal timing.
If they did continued to dance losing one beat they wouldn`t get a mark from any judge.
This I think has something to do with it. Harry Smith - Hampshire wrote on Dancesport UK He asked.And I quote.
On the basics and finer points of foot technique. The footwork of the Man`s 3rd step of a Foxtrot Feather Step is given as TH. in the technique books. Describe the exact positioning of the moving leg at the moment that the Heel of the supporting leg should touches the floor. I would add to that. Also give me the timing.
To continue. If every fad was to make its way into the technique book it would be chaos to say the least, and you could throw the technique books into the rubbish bin.
Does that make sense to all of you who aspire to be Technique Book rewritters.
Can you imagine writting that third step. As not being on beat 4 or beat 1 but somewhere in between. Show my how you would convey to a student that in a Technique Book.
Re: Feather Step International Style
Posted by Anonymous
2/9/2007  1:52:00 PM
"That doesn`t answer the question. If I arrive late on my second quick. What timing will I use on my Reverse Turn, The music is playing 1234 in that order. In a bar of 4/4 music we have four beats. You or nobody else can make it five or three.."

You still are not understanding the dance.

Nobody is trying to make the bar of music any number of beats other than 4.

But what you are missing is that we are not trying to fit each figure into a bar of music. Instead, we are dancing it over a time equivelent to four beats of music, but a time of four beats THAT DOES NOT ALIGN WITH ANY BAR OF MUSIC OR EVEN ANY FOUR NUMBERED BEATS.

The timing of the reverse turn was, in my measurments, the same as the timing of the feather. Which is to say that the first step landed just before beat two, the second step landed on beat three* and the third step landed in between beats four and one.

*By on beat three, I mean that I used this as the reference point. Everyone thinks the first quick should go there, Quickstep and myself included, so I defined it to be on beat three, and used that to establish the relationship between the music and the movement in order to determine where the other two steps fall.

"If a competitor did wish to hold that third step and alter the timing.If this was to be followed by an Open Telemark they would syncopate the Telemark to, two and three, to come back to normal timing."

No - because they already are dancing "normal timing" by being what you consider "late". The fact you are going to have to face up to sooner or later is that this is the accepted way that foxtrot is danced. Perhaps if going into a bunch of quicks in a weave the timing would shift to land those repeated steps on the beats, but not for SQQ figues as this "late" timing is the ACCEPTED WAY TO DANCE SQQ FIGURES.

"Does that make sense to all of you who aspire to be Technique Book rewritters.
Can you imagine writting that third step. As not being on beat 4 or beat 1 but somewhere in between. Show my how you would convey to a student that in a Technique Book."

I don't aspire to rewrite the technique book. This whole subject does not actaully need discussion if it had been left well enough alone. The only reason we have to put a lot of effort into specifying exactly where the third step falls is becasue you felt called to SPREAD ERRONEOUS INFORMATION ABOUT IT. In terms of learning dancing, it would be much better to concentrate on the action, and try to align the first quick with beat three but not align any other footstep - because FOXTROT IS NOT ABOUT FOOT TIMING. Since you unwisely chose to argue for aligning the second quick - a SEVERE ERROR THAT WILL KILL THE NATURE OF FOXTROT - it now becomes necessary to point out PRECISELY WHY YOU ARE WRONG.

It's definitely a case where NOT TALKING ABOUT IT WOULD BE MORE PRODUCTIVE THAN GIVING OUT WRONG INFORMATION. But once wrong information has beeen given out, IT MUST BE SPECIFICALLY CORRECTED.
no subject
Posted by tangotime
7/2/2007  11:18:00 PM
All should remember-- The techn. books are there, purely as a guide . Their purpose for being, was to bring a commonality to teaching.

As scrivener remarked -- there can not be any exact technique ( paraphrase )

in essence, meaning some techn. may change , to suit a circumstance .
He also remarked about f/t- " you can be off the " slows "-- but only a fool would be off the Quicks "
no subject
Posted by Serendipidy
7/3/2007  5:28:00 PM
Tangotime.I`m pretty sure that it was Len who told us to get those two quicks right on the button and let the slows look after themselves. More recently Pat Thomson said . This couple sometimes miss that second quick. They should hit that crotchet right on the black dot.
no subject
Posted by anymouse
7/3/2007  6:58:00 PM
Quickstep, pretending to be "serendipity" wrote:

"Tangotime.I`m pretty sure that it was Len who told us to get those two quicks right on the button and let the slows look after themselves. More recently Pat Thomson said . This couple sometimes miss that second quick. They should hit that crotchet right on the black dot."

Hey quickstep, why are you always inventing new aliases? Could it be that you've destroyed the credibility of your old name so now you start over with "serendipity" ???

Anyway, your advice is wrong as ever on the subject of foxtrot timing:

http://www.ballroomdancers.com/Message_Board/view_messages.asp?MsgID=23818

no subject
Posted by Serendipidy
7/4/2007  8:30:00 PM
So what exactly was Pat Thompson saying when she drew attention to this dancer not getting his second quicks right on the beat. And as Tangotime time when quoting Len Scrivener who said . You can be off the slows, but only a fool would be off the quicks. What screwball answer can you give to that.
Whats in a name said Shakespear. Since one of my friends used my computer my name seems to have been changed. A rose by any other name is still a rose isn`t it.
You said the advice is wrong. So please go ahead and tell Pat and Len where they got it wrong.
You might have noticed that some of us do give a reference as to where the information comes from. I for one never write anything without saying where the information came from wether it be a book or a video or a person. You would do well to follow. You can take that as being advice if you like. Lets hear your answer to the people who do get there quicks in time with the music.
no subject
Posted by anymouse
7/4/2007  10:37:00 PM
"So what exactly was Pat Thompson saying when she drew attention to this dancer not getting his second quicks right on the beat."

You never quit being wrong, do you Quickstep - you just hide behind a new alias in the nieve hope that it gives you a new chance. Well it doesn't, you can't hide because you are so obviously yourslef.

As for the above quote, you are obviously misundersanding it, as if it meant what you think it did it would be at odds with what is well known to actually happen, as already established here, over and over and over again:

http://www.ballroomdancers.com/Message_Board/view_messages.asp?MsgID=23818
no subject
Posted by Serendipidy
7/5/2007  7:36:00 PM
On the 06 Foxtrot Professional Final which most of us have access to. Can you see any of the six finalists that were not right on the beat with their quicks. Anonymouse . You will be looking a long long time. Also you haven`t a clue who Pat Thompson is have you. If you go to the 75th Blackpool tapes you can listen to her yourself. There you are again I given you a reference to check for yourself. In return I would like to know who exactly told you that you can dance off the beat and compete. Socially you can please yourself, and you obviously do, as well as not counting the beats which you have said you don`t. Names please. Just to give you something to pick at. In a Waltz routine I have for years had chasses that have a different timing for each. There is 1 2 and 3. 1 and 2 3. and 1 2 3 and.. To try to go from one to another without counting would produce some degree of difficulty. Which leads me to believe that your dancing must be composed of very basic steps. I would love to see what sort of a mess you would make of a Samba with no count.
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