I've heard of it in Salsa. One of the first (maybe only ) times I went to a Salsa club. One of my lesson partners asked if I did ballroom. He could tell by the frame.

But it also could be the way to distinguish between triple and single time swing. I think I hear triple-time referred to once as the "Ballroom" swing.

*shrug*

-TheDitz

I'm with twnkltoz on this one. Ballroom ECS looks ballroomy: precise and exacting. The non-ballroom ECS is very relaxed and free flowing, sometimes moving back and forth between single time and triple time.
In my experience, anyway, 8^)

Ghost-

That's a new one on me...I've never heard it put that way. Some people consider West Coast swing to be "non-ballroom" ECS...but that's the only thing I can think of.

Let us know

East Coast Swing (Triple-step), like Salsa, was never meant to be ballroomish. Swing is a down & dirty, very loose, anything goes social dance. Yes, some frame & a lot of tone are required. However, the body is never upright & the knees are always bent. If you don't, you will be hurting for quite a while. In addition, ballroom swing "just ain't right!". :)

Stephen: Yee Haa.. You are right on! The best thing you could've said, you said. "Some frame and a lot of tone are required" Most ballroom teachers are looking out for their pocketbook rather than the benefit of the student and they forget to preach no, hammer to their students the benefits of frame and tone. Owen

I was supprised that a frame for the man that gives off a signal if anything goes out of line is easily available, and not that costly.

Agreed -- some dances don't translate well into the Ballroom scene. ECS and Salsa are not meant to be danced upright in a fixed rigid frame. And that doesn't mean they are danced "sloppier" outside the ballroom world either.

WCS is the same way -- I absolutely hate dancing West Coast with people who learned it in the Ballroom world. They are very "heavy" to dance with and their style usually looks really bad.

Ironically, I believe ECS is best done in the Country Dance (competitive) world. I would have thought the Lindy Hop scene would have been the best, but they tend to write off ECS as an inferior form of Lindy. Competitve country dancers have given the dance a unique style as it's own dance.

As a ballroom dancer who has competed in American Rhythm (where both ECS and Mambo are done)and performed and social danced the street styles of the dances as well as competed in the Country Western form, I can tell you what I teach to be the difference. Swing, in it's basic form is two triples and a rock step, social leaders need to be aware of their followers and the music, followers need to be aware of their leaders and their balance. Once you get beyond that, East Coast Swing was created by the ballroom system, as was Jive. They are versions of swing that fit the techniques of Latin and Rhythm styles. Lindy Hop is the original swing and has no hip action, a prone posture, and a downward bounce. West Coast Swing is a derivative, like East Coast and Jive, of Lindy Hop. It comes from California, where movie directors wanted a version of swing that didn't rotate so much. That way you didn't get a camera full of someone's behind. The current style of West Coast swing has a lot to do with the music it's danced to.

Salsa/Mambo is pretty similar to the ballroom style. The Ballroom style tends to be more presentational and with straighter legs, but it should still have the same elements of hip action and connection.

Hope that was helpful
Solomon
www.solomonsinger.com

What happened to Single Rhythm, Double Rhythm, then there is Triple Rhythm? Oh 4 count is a blast! Then of course WCS which is it's own animal as is Hustle (a swing yes). Delighted.

I think the biggest difference isn't just the frame, but the attitude. In the ballroom world, the dance is more upright, the posture is "tall", and the attitude is very much more about precision. In the non-ballroom (nightclub or street) swing, EC still should have frame, but the anchor is down more so. The posture has bent knees, and and the shoulders should be more even. I think in recent years EC has become more codified, and my own person teaching style is based on the posture and frame of smooth-style Lindy.

Looking at the syllabus video for the "throwout" in EC swing, I can tell you that the non-ballroom version would not have the lady facing away from the man at any point in that move. The quick reason for that is responsiveness: as EC moves to faster tempos, turning away from the lead delays reaction time, and you can't follow as easily into the next move with effortlessness and ease. When I teach, this is a correction I make right away. Once in a while, I will have a student that learned in a ballroom heavy studio, and they will fight me on this point up until I move the tempo over 120 beats per minute.

Also, non-ballroom EC leaves much of the presentation up to the dancer. Once you teach the basic 10 or so moves (I only teach single and double time for a total of 15 minutes combined in a 6 hour series, the rest is all triple-step) I really work with my students to express their personality in the dance. Yes, in the end, their style will resemble that of their primary instructor, but I aim to make my influence more of a nuance in favor of their own style. I prefer that my students don't look like cookie-cutters of me or each other.