Log In

Username:

Password:

   Stay logged in?

Forgot Password?

User Status

 

Attention

 

Recover Password

Username or Email:

Loading...
Change Image
Enter the code in the photo at left:

Before We Continue...

Are you absolutely sure you want
to delete this message?

Premium Membership

Upgrade to
Premium Membership!

Renew Your
Premium Membership!

$99
PER YEAR
$79
PER YEAR
$79
PER YEAR

Premium Membership includes the following benefits:

Don't let your Premium Membership expire, or you'll miss out on:

  • Exclusive access to over 1,620 video demonstrations of patterns in the full bronze, silver and gold levels.
  • Access to all previous variations of the week, including full video instruction of man's and lady's parts.
  • Over twice as many videos as basic membership.
  • A completely ad-free experience!

 

Sponsored Ad

+ View Older Messages

Re: Conga Drum in Cha Cha
Posted by Waltz123
6/29/2015  9:29:00 PM
I am suspecting that the fact that deejays, as well as teachers, are inconsistent with playing the CC music, is part of my problem of having difficulty identifying the start of the bar.

I suspect the problem is that you're relying too heavily on specific instruments to give you cues about which beats to match to which accents. I'm not saying that people don't do this, but when they do it tends to be on a more "organic" level that requires very little conscious effort. If you have trouble simply identifying beat 1 of each measure, I would focus my attention on that skill alone, which has less to do with the orchestration of specific dance styles than it does general musicianship. In other words, forget (for now) what instrument accents the 2 beat in the authentic Cha Cha you hope the deejay might play, and focus instead on what, in music as a whole, tells you where beat 1 is.

All you ever *really* need to know is where to find 1. This may sound silly, but without beat 1, there can't be a beat 2, or 4, or anything else. Your brain relates everything to beat 1, and everything else as a consequence of that. So your first job is to find that beat. Once you do, it's not your job to count from there to another beat. Find 1, and then simply do the action that is supposed to happen on that beat.

That's the concept, anyway. And I know it's easier said than done, because learning to find 1 can be a long haul, depending on the student. But that's the target, and once you have it in your sights, you can pursue it more directly without distractions.

The first thing you should do is start simple. Musicality is, like anything else, a skill that you must build from the ground up. You wouldn't dream of trying to learn a full professional dance routine on your first dance lesson... It would be overwhelmingly difficult and leave you feeling frustrated and ready to quit, perhaps muttering something to the effect of, "I'll never be a dancer". But if you'd started with a Box Step and worked your way up slowly, you might someday achieve that advanced routine.

Likewise, if you've ever caught yourself thinking, "I'll never be musical enough to find the 1 beat", it's probably because you're pursuing music that's way too advanced. Latin music is especially difficult because it's highly syncopated with a great deal of saturated orchestration, and in some cases includes a bass line that's especially deceptive. So start by studying instead something more attainable -- the musical equivalent of the box step -- and work your way up.

The tricky thing about music is that for every rule there are a thousand exceptions. The ongoing joke in my music school went something like this: "X is always true, except when it isn't." At best you'll find a few things that are typical, but it's not long before you stumble upon the exception.

So rather than having someone like me list for you certain set of easily breakable rules like, "Lyrics usually start on count 1" or "The first beat of a song should start with the 'tonic' chord", a better approach is to start with songs you know, and deconstruct them to figure out what types of things give clues to the 1 beat. This type of training is far more effective because your ear picks up on things naturally on a much deeper level and in much greater quantity than you'll achieve through conscious analysis.

Lyrics make great cues, so pick songs with words, and use those words to cue you to 1. For example, if you like Oye Como Va, and you know that the syllable "Oy" is always on 1, you'll forever be able to dance easily on time to that song. And in the meantime, it'll teach your subconscious many other lessons about music in general, so you'll be able to naturally find the 1 in similar sounding songs with different lyrics.

(continued in next post)
Re: Conga Drum in Cha Cha
Posted by Waltz123
6/29/2015  9:32:00 PM
(continued from previous post)

Since Oye Como Va starts with lyrics on 1, it might be a good idea next to learn a song or two whose lyrics specifically don't start on 1. Our Love Is Hear to Stay is an interesting Foxtrot with two notable qualities (i.e. "broken rules"): First, the lyrics start 3 beats early, with "It's very clear...". The word "clear" lands on 1. The phrase continues with "Our love is hear to stay", with the word "stay" landing on another 1. So the *ending* of each mini phrase is the *beginning* of the measure. Secondly, the "tonic" or "I" chord typically begins most songs since it does the best job of establishing what key the song is in. But this song begins with the "II" chord on the word "clear", and doesn't resolve to "I" until the word "stay" in bar 3. Learn this song, and you've added to your repertoire of what your ear naturally understands.

Pick your favorite 50 songs with lyrics, and work on 2 to 3 a week. They don't have to all be ballroom -- In fact, save ballroom music for later, or at least for the end of the list. It's more important that your list be varied in style, increasing only gradually in difficulty, and that it be comprised entirely of songs to which you know the words. Try to figure out where beat 1 is, and if you can't, have someone help you. Then memorize which words or syllables occur on the 1, and clap or tap along like a metronome, emphasizing 1 in each measure. Don't overdo it -- 2-3 songs a week maximum, but listen and clap along every chance you get. The brain needs time to process all that information.

The next 50 songs can be without lyrics. At this point your brain should be able to process certain melodic cues, harmonic progressions, or rhythmic accents that you can sing, either literally out loud or within your own head, that you can memorize as landing on beat 1. Again, get help if you need it to start, then memorize, memorize, memorize. Each song is not just another entry in your repertoire of songs, but another entire set of rules and exceptions that applies to music as a whole. The more songs you add, the less you'll need outside help to figure out the next one.

Sooner or later you'll be able to add music specific to ballroom. Each style has some elements that make identification easier, others harder. Overall, however, I'd say non-authentic march-like Tangos are the easiest overall, followed by Samba, then anything modern pop music-related, like non-authentic Cha Chas and slower Swings. Save authentic Latin music for last, especially Salsa, Mambo, Bolero, etc. Waltzes, both slow and Viennese tempo, run the gambit from least to most difficult, because while 3/4 and 6/8 music in general has a clearer agogic accent, stylistically there are many (especially en vogue today) that are very melodic and orchestral, making the beat itself more difficult for beginners to find. So as easy as some Waltzes might be, I'd save it for last, just in case.

Bottom line: Forget about 2, 3, 4, or anything in between. Forget conga drums, claves, slaps and tones. Forget this style and that style, and zero in on a single job: Find the 1. Everywhere. Every style, every rule, every exception. Listen actively and listen often. Until your ear is fully trained in this single exercise, the finer points will be lost on it. And remember: You can't have a 2 without a 1. So find 1... 2 is the beat that comes right after it. (c:

Regards,
Jonathan
Re: Conga Drum in Cha Cha
Posted by nloftofan1
7/4/2015  1:56:00 PM
Jonathan's comment "So find 1... 2 is the beat that comes right after it" really struck a chord. I have a friend who is an instructor (35 years experience) who teaches what he calls "Mambo/Salsa." His idea is that not many people dance Mambo, while Salsa is popular, because Salsa is easier. To do Mambo you have to break on the 2 beat, while Salsa breaks on 1 (I know that there are some exceptions to this rule). He thought people had trouble finding the 2 beat; he even said that he couldn't find the 2 beat. That last made no sense to me. I can find the 2 beat; just as Jonathan said, it's the beat after the 1 beat.

Maybe he was exaggerating when he said he couldn't find the 2 beat. "Hey, you're breaking on 2" he said once when I was dancing.

But now the point. Jonathan's advice is to find the 1, and there is a perfect song to help you work on finding it. Look for "One," from the musical "A Chorus Line." Try to find the original cast version. If somebody wanted to write a song designed to help you find the 1 beat, they could hardly do better. Not only is it a great Foxtrot (sorry, not a Cha-Cha), but the whole song is about counting--with emphasis on 1, obviously.
Re: Conga Drum in Cha Cha
Posted by Voco
7/12/2015  11:03:00 PM
Thanks Jonathan and all the commentators for this discussion. Very interesting and helpful.
Re: Conga Drum in Cha Cha
Posted by Voco
7/12/2015  11:39:00 PM
Hi Jonathan,
To which version of Our Love Is Here To Stay are you referring? There are a half a dozen foxtrots of that song. Who is the singer? Or do you have a link? Thanks.
Re: Conga Drum in Cha Cha
Posted by Waltz123
7/15/2015  1:14:00 AM
Our Love Is Here To Stay is a jazz standard, so it doesn't really matter which version you hear. Assuming you're listening to a basic vocal version as suggested -- not a crazy "out there" instrumental bebop rendition where you barely recognize the song -- the melody should follow the exact rhythm I described.

Some versions that come to mind are Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, Billie Holiday, Nat King Cole, Tony Bennet, Vic Damone, and even Rod Stewart. All the same ilk... Famous jazz singers performing straight ahead versions of jazz standards.

Regards,
Jonathan
Re: Conga Drum in Cha Cha
Posted by terence2
6/28/2015  3:29:00 AM

One of the major problems with DJs who are hired for comps is :
many/most , do NOT have clue about the complex music in the authentic latin genre ( ya know, the stuff upon which we base our social dances ).

"Pop" music is/was often used for the simplistic reasoning that, the average public might get confused !! ( and that includes many teachers ) .Its been perpetuated, thru the show style dances, that became popular back when ( My era ).

The ONLY latin styled band back in the 40s and 50s, was Edmundo Ros, and he played primarily Samba and Rumba, as Chas didn't exist until the early/ middle 50s in the UK .

Latin rhythms are based on the " Son ". It is a dance, and also is broken down into various musical styles, for ex...

Guajira,Guaguanco, Guaracha Son Montuno, Son Bolero, and to complicate matters even more ," Clave" the sticks the beat out the direction of the specific style being played. There are 2 clave " strikes " one is a Rumba and the other is a Son ( Son 2/3 and Rumba 3/2.)

Those are the "stikes " that occur over the 2 bars , The argument is often , does clave happen over 1 or 2 bars, I say, it depends upon the arrange !!

Pretty much all Rumba, the authentic kind( and Salsa ) is written in a 2/3 , the oddball ,is Guaracha which is also written in 3/2.
To make matters worse, some song switch clave to 3/2 and back again.

Theres so much more to say/write, but.. for your purposes, as Jonathon said, locate the "2" , and dance away !!.

I realise this may complicate matters again, as far as the Conga is concerned, but, this was to hi-lite the importance of other instruments that, are an integral part of the music structure. Without the others the drum would be a "solo" event, as is danced in "authentic " Rumba creating the "call an response" , to which we ALL dance .

NB.. it must be mentioned that, the " Clave " is the Alma Y Corazon ( heart and soul ) of ALL latin music .

Re: Difference in cha-chas
Posted by terence2
6/30/2015  11:36:00 PM


Ask yourself this question ; when walking, does your knee flex and retain that position momentarily, straightning only , as weight is fully applied ?.

Now step to a straight leg.. Q.. which is more " natural " ?.

These are 2 competing theories ...The Intern. style chose the straight one, nut, altho trained initially in that style, I've come over to the other.
Reason ?.. I prefer my "latin " to retain its indigenous style in looks and technique, with a blend of both.

The word "correct " depends upon whom one asks .













Copyright  ©  1997-2024 BallroomDancers.com