That's a superb question! And I have an opinion, if not an answer.

I saw a tape of some QuickStep experts breaking down their routine into stuff that lesser mortals could do, and showing how a step could progress the other way- from completely led to not touching, with parallel movement.

When I muve forward toward my partner, I am leading something. But she has to know dance well enough to know that. When you get into more and more complex movements, like the variations on this website, they have to be learned. I can still lead into it, but partner needs to know what I'm doing based on having learned the step. So that's clearly something other than strict LEAD AND FOLLOW. It's a little like "let's do this" and have fun with it. And that IS dancing.

I think tho that when EVERY step of the dance from start to end is planned, then it becomes a set piece, and it is no longer spontaneous dancing, but is a pretty showcase routine. If you dont feel that that is dancing, then I guess it isnt. (But I'd love to be able to do it.....)

Jerry

Just for discussion's sake:

We all do routines. If you're blocked in a corner on any travelling dance when it clears you can carry on.

With a paso, practiced (choreographed) to one piece only how easy is it to adjust?

With a traveling dance dancing to my mind is the ability to easily move your partner into unscripted sequences smoothly and seamlessly when confronted with problems ahead. As Pat Bovaird puts it, "If the man dances correctly then the lady has no choice but to dance correctly." What I dislike about routines (in my own dancing) is that the follow anticipates the next step instead of me creating a situation that her step should be a natural consequence of my action.

To me that's a bit of the difference between dance and choreography in ballroom.

Other opinions?

OB

Interesting. By that definition, however, you could not consider ballet a dance unless done as an improv. Are broadway performers dancers?

Sun,

To me that's a bit of the difference between dance and choreography in ballroom.


Specifically stated "ballroom" for just that reason. But hey, I'm really talking an ideal here. As I look at it:

We all dance routines but paso would seem to be more highly scripted than the others. When any other paso but Espani Cani is played most routines suffer or fall apart. "Oh! Oh! Different introduction! What do we do now!" Deer in the headlights look.

My argument originally was that I wanted to see if I could try a paso to a Four Tops tune to break away from too much reliance on choreography and to experiment.

There is more than 1 paso out there.

OB

Sun,

Just to add:

In a sense I would agree with how you interpreted my statement.

I would consider ballet primarily a performance based on dance.

OB

I wish I had said it that well.
Jerry

Jerry,

I was rereading this thread and found what you said very interesting:

When I muve forward toward my partner, I am leading something. But she has to know dance well enough to know that. When you get into more and more complex movements, like the variations on this website, they have to be learned. I can still lead into it, but partner needs to know what I'm doing based on having learned the step. So that's clearly something other than strict LEAD AND FOLLOW. It's a little like "let's do this" and have fun with it. And that IS dancing.

My wife and I work with several teachers and dance out of syllabus and rely a lot on choreography and routines. So we can dance a routine but I somehow feel we are not dancing.

We live on the west coast in an area that doesn't have access usually to high level coach/finishers. By luck one of our local teachers is working towards her fellowship. Her teacher, who lives in Montreal travels extensively to the Far East as an ISTD Examiner. He stops here for about 10 days every 2 months on his way. We take as much time with him as we can when he's here.

In his 70's now, he is a former National Champion and 6 or 7 time judge at the World's.

His theory is that if the man dances correctly the lady has no choice but to dance correctly. Obviously this is a simplification as the lady has to develop her contribution to a high level too. Still, when I've danced the woman's part as he demonstrates things with me I quite literally have no choice but to put my feet exactly where he wants them to go. It's amazing and effortless and no pushing or pulling at all.

My wife and I get this occassionally and I can tell you my wife is very happy for the rest of the day when we're getting it but our coach does it all the time. It's internalized in his body.

So I don't know if this makes intuitive sense but:

My wife and I dance.

Our teacher/coach is dancing.

OB

ok all im trying to say about the paso doble and the 4 tops song is that part of the paso doble is the structure of the song. breaks fall in certian places and if you dance it to somethign else that does not have the same structure (breaks placed in the right spots and lengths of breaks and such) it skrews with the dance. im all for differnt and fooling around with danceing, hell, some times i start fooling around doing what i call the "angry foxtrot" with one of my friends. the reasons that paso routines fall apart if they are done to anything other than Espani Cani is because that is what Paso is danced to. the music is part of the dance. you talk about breaking away from choreography in paso, paso is choerography. its cool you want to experement, its my favorite thing to do in fact. but you cant really break away from it in paso. its an aspect of the dance. ok what all this boils down to is my personal feeling on experementing with things is you should grasp all aspects of it and THEN break the rules. and you just dont seem to understand the aspects of the dance.
-Crimson
P.S. Again, i wish you luck with your 4 tops experement. it sounds like if you go at it right, it will be alot of fun.

crim,

Hope you didn't take any of my comments personally. It is all meant for discuss and I enjoyed learning other view points.

But I am intrigued. Your comments make it sound like there is only 1 Paso (Espani Cani) when there are thousands of Pasii (Is that the plural? LOL!).

It's just that everyone choreographs to that one particular piece of music which as you note has particular breaks and is particularly exciting and dramatic.

OB
OB

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