"3)I've watched top dancers carefully, and they make their foot placements in general on the beat (apart from 'and' steps etc and deliberate hovver- type movements)"

Then you haven't been watching good foxtrot.

See archives of rec.arts.dance for some very carefully recorded real-world timings.

I'll agree with the first statement, but the second should be qualified with "...when followed by a slow". When followed by a quick, as is often the case with a fallaway action (eg bounce fallaway to weave), the fourth step of the fallaway should land squarely on the beat.

Actually, even the slow of the falalway is debatable. It doesn't initiate the same degree of swing as most of the basic Foxtrot actions, and many prefer to land squarely on the beat and stretch the movement through the second half of the step, better defining the "slow and" rhythm.

The delayed or "stretched" slow works well by itself, but when broken up into a "slow and", the delayed action tends to muddy the rhythm.

So while I'm a strong proponent of the "stretched" Foxtrot timing in most cases, I don't necessarily recommend it for "slow and quick quick" timing, particularly on the fallaway. My vote goes with Phil's timing breakdown.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson

I hope it's kosher to ask you directly for an opinion. Do you think it is wise or unwise for a lady to help her partner with timing? If he can dance on time with their instructor, without a struggle, why not with his partner{who happens to be more experienced than he}? We're not speaking of musical interpretation, we're talking 123 or SQQ.
Thanks

"If he can dance on time with their instructor, without a struggle, why not with his partner"

Yes, she needs to help him with the timing. She would do this by learning to support her weight in her feet as well as the teacher can, including things like rolling all the way to the heel of the stnading foot before extending the other leg back.

Foxtrot timing is difficult enough to learn conceptually, with a partner providing even a slight imbalance it's downright impossible.

Generally agree, couple points though.

First the questions was about the slip pivot ending. I'd actually disagree with those who want to put the pivot on an & in waltz, and go with more accelerated timing at the start so the pivot can be slower. Which suggests that I wouldn't dally on that slow in foxtrot, in fact I might dance it much closer to QQQQ than S&QQ.

The point about the drifing of the last quick is also very good; there's a real difference between the feel in the middle of a weave action, in terms of both rise and timing, and that of the penultimate and ultimate quicks of a grouping that ends with a full lowering. Those who feel that every measure must come out on time often miss this - the syllabus weave groups are two measures long, and shouldn't fully resolve until the end of the 2nd measure.

I think of that as more of a social issue than a technical one; It depends on the relationship between you and the person you're dancing with.

For example, female teachers will often subtly guide their male students onto the right beat. However, they tend to have the skill to pull it off under the radar. As far as the man knows, he was on the right beat all along. And even when it is recognized by the student, it will probably be considered acceptable by social standards because it's a teacher/student relationship.

If you're dancing with a random stranger at a social dance, you have to be a bit more careful about how you approach the situation. Again, with enough skill you can probably keep your back-leading under the radar, but if it becomes too obvious, it may not be met with enthusiasm. Some men may be very appreciative of the guidance, but the ones with big delicate egos will not. So it's as much a test of your people skills as it is a test of your dancing skills.

As for your partner, that's entirely a personal matter between the two of you. You are welcome to make up whatever "rules" suit your partnership. If the two of you can't come to an agreement (for example, if he'd rather dance off time than get your help), then you may just not be a match. If you want to stay with him, you'll probably have to live with the fact that you won't convince him otherwise. But you can still, to some degree, develop your subtle back-leading skills over time to provide undetected assitance.

For me personally, if I was following someone who was off time at a social dance, if I couldn't subtly guide them back, I'd just let it go. The goal in social dancing is to adapt, and sometimes that means adapting to someone's skewed (or non-existent) sense of rhythm. You'll always have a better time when you play on the same team. (This is a lesson I wish more leaders would learn, but that's a topic for another day).

On the other hand, if I had an amateur couple entering a competition, and the man couldn't hold a beat, then sure... I'd tell the lady to do what was necessary to get him on time. In that case, I believe the ends would justify the means. But that's because the goal of a competitor is very different than that of a social dancer.

Regards,
Jonathan

Phil. It is interesting that you should mention about placing the feet in between the beats, Both John Wood and Christopher Hawkings have not so much been critisised,. But pointed out that they sometimes dance behind the beat. So there you are. Timing. I'll relate a tale. I went for a lesson to this super coach. When I asked what timing I should use on the Fallaway he said how do I know , your doing it not me. In other words listen to the music. If it tells you to do it this way then do so. Next time out you may do it with a different timing.So there you go.The music rules the man, not the man ruling the music

If only it was that simple. When you have been dancing the F>S>P. as 1&23 it takes more than listening to the music to change to 123& or 12&3. It takes lots of practice and time. You can count the timing any way you want but it does not mean thats what you are actualy doing. My old teacher had us count the waltz as 12&, we were staying up to long as she explained ,good dancers spend more time down than up.

Dave .She was exactly right. You are at your highest and your lowest on three, plus for the lady her preporation for one.( releasing the foot to a slightly back position with the toe in contact with the floor ) all on the count of three. I am not sure that I like the count 1 2 & .But if it works , so what. I have been taught to bring my feet together on 2 (and ), leaving time to rise to my full height and lower on three (and ). This gives my partner time to release the none standing foot ready for one. The early release of the foot by the lady is a must ( so I am told ). If the feet are together at this point the man will push the lady onto the step. The man's feet are together at the end of count three
( and ) The ladies are not.

Well, i got my Andrew Sinkinson tape out ("Come Dancing - HW413" from Dance Universe) and went to the part where he does a public exhibition of beautiful to-die-for foxtrot. I wanted to see whether he was dancing on the beat, between the beats, doing his feather step or 3-step slows closer to beat 2...etc.
He dances essentially on the beat. Of course there is some manipulation, but this is largely a slight hovering effect, sometimes starting a slow somewhere between 1 and 1&, other times 'massaging' the timing, but only by very small amounts. Mostly, his expressive element comes from beautiful body flight over his feet. The timing of his steps are largely as in the technique book.