Don, i think everyone would agree. it's just the idea of 'pulling' oneself backwards (or i guess forwards)which is bugging us.
Dave, i can only conclude that you're using the word 'pull' in a different way.
When you explained how to pull yourself back while holding onto a table (it was some time back - and don't worry - no offence taken )you added something - pushing with the front leg before lifting it. that's entirely the point. You push with the front leg.
My experiment was to see if anyone could pull themselves backward from a standing start. If indeed there is a pull, it must be possible from a standing start. I can just about generate a small force, but not enough to pull me back in my experiment, and certainly it's not part of my dancing.

Phil, the video is Victor Veyrasset'S,Slow Foxtrot,reverse turn. What I am suggesting is that when dancing the basic foxtrot figures on moving backwards is that we first push off from the front foot(LF, 3rd step of RT) that gives us the flight to arrive onto the ball of the back foot{RF},but as the weight moves onto the heal we then pull and push off that heal while we swing the (LF) to the side for the feather exit. Notice that I said (suggest).

Lets put it a different way. Taking a walking step off the left foot we push off giving us enough flight to place us over the instep of the right foot so that all we have to do now is to compress and release from the ball and toe of the RF for the next step. Does this not mean that we are only using the ball and toe of the RF to controll the speed at wich we move over the Rf. If you agree we also use the heal then you have agree that the flight from the LF only takes us to the point where the left heal hits the floor we then pull our weight over the instep with control.

Dave - i think it's the word 'pull' that is causing me problems. I can't picture any pulling action when rolling forward from the heel to the ball and toes of the standing foot as we move over it. When the heel strikes, the muscles of the leg and foot take over to control the motion over that standing foot, but 'pulling' implies a conscious force back towards the body as it moves towards the standing foot. i can't visualise that - i certainly don't feel that's what im doing.

Do any of you guys actually analyse what you are doing. I will try to explain. I have a picture of Peter Eggleton taken years ago in a technique book. In it he is at full stretch front toe off the floor. Back heel off the floor. His weight is right in the middle of the two feet. A question was asked . Is he going forward, or is he going backward. It is impossible to say. Now go to the learning centre here. Find the forward and the backward walks. You will find there is one shot in the forward walk. And there is one shot in the backward walk where the weight is smack in the middle.. Place them on each other and tell me if there is any difference. The problem with most seems to be the flight of the body which must pass the split weight position.The flight of the body must be coming from the push, whether it be back or forward. Why do you think the rear heel is off the floor. Or the front toe is also off the floor. Going forward the weight is going to arrive as the toe touches the floor. And going backward as the heel lowers to the floor. The big discusion point is where is the moving foot in relation to the body as the toe or the heel lowers.This is where we need to go to the Disks or Video and study.

"I have a picture of Peter Eggleton taken years ago in a technique book. In it he is at full stretch front toe off the floor. Back heel off the floor. His weight is right in the middle of the two feet. A question was asked . Is he going forward, or is he going backward. It is impossible to say. Now go to the learning centre here. Find the forward and the backward walks. You will find there is one shot in the forward walk. And there is one shot in the backward walk where the weight is smack in the middle.. Place them on each other and tell me if there is any difference. The problem with most seems to be the flight of the body which must pass the split weight position.The flight of the body must be coming from the push, whether it be back or forward."

You would think that at that instant the weight is shared between the feet, but in fact it should not be. The pressure is entirely in the departing foot, and is a combination of support against gravity and push to move across the floor. The body is not in a position of static balance at the time when you switch feet - you are not fully supported. To stop there you would have to have weight in both feet, but we do not stop there, we go from supported on one foot, to unsupported, to supported on the other.

Suomynona. I think it is worth while comparing a Rumba Walk to a Walk in Standard. In a Rumba Walk. Stand with the feet together. Weight on RF. Heel of LF as high as you can get it. The knee will be bent and is in front of the body That is position A. Send the Lf foreward straightening the knee and lower the heel. The weight is still on the RF. That is position B. Then the weight is sent forward by the use of the back foot to position C. Compare this with a Heel lead in Foxtrot. We do not have the luxury of a position B where the weight is still on the supporting foot. In our augument the weight continues forward through what would be position B all coming from the supporting foot. How anybody can even think that the front foot pulls the back foot beats me.

Suomynona. Thats exactly what I wrote. Nobody mentioned a stop in the middle. The word stop doesn't appear in any technique book so why would we. On some moves the body still moves even though the feet appear to be not travelling, take a Wing for instance. If you can think of a dart being thrown at a dart board. At some time it must be mid way between the hand and the board but still travelling appearing to be seemless. Which it is.The difference is that we are lowering and in some cases rising. In my humble opinion it is the way we use those seemless nuetral positions which seperates those who just move to those who dance. Remember, in any dance a step is just a step. The bit in between is where we dance.The way we move into it and the way we move out. Happy New Year Everybody.

Dave,

I support you on this one.

One 'pulls' onto the receiving leg. To understand this action one must 1st abandon 'pushing' the weight down onto the receiving leg. One cannot do both actions at the same time on the same leg. One compresses 'pushes' off the supporting leg and pulls onto the receiving leg.

For a forward step, as the moving heel hits the ground the point of pressure of the moving leg is ahead of the centre of weight. The lower leg, heel to knee, 'pulls' the upper leg and body forwards. The reaction is the knee joint bending 'forwards' correctly. This is the correct action of softening the knee as one receives the weight onto the new leg while continuing to maintain and build the forward momentum.

The other question is how strong is the pull. The push off the standing leg has already got the body moving so the 'pull' onto the receiving leg is not necessarily a strong 'pulling' of body weight. It will more often than not be 'pull' connection. By connection I mean a point of pressure contact of the heel with the floor to have a sense of aware of the floor rather than a point to actually generate a substantial force that must move weight. This is equally true for the push off the standing leg after the recovery step where the body still may still have momentum from the previous figure. The 'push' of the standing leg is again more a connection with the floor rather than a forceful push to get the full weight of body going.

Rha

Thanks Rha. You do a much better job of describing it that I can. Don, I do examine what I do before explaining it here. I don't have the mental capacity to do otherwise. Let me explain one other thing that I feel. You will notice that there is angle {25 degrees approx} between the thigh and front part of the body before our weight arrives completly over the foot when walking,our pelvis is slightly back of the head weight. when we arrive completly over the standing foot that angle will straighten the thigh and the body will form a straight virtical line ,the hips will be back under the head weight. It is the pulling up action of the heal that straightens the angle and pulls the hips back under the body. We are now virtical before taking the next step with the head weight and knees leading the body. This is what I feel and does not mean what actually takes place.