Well that brought on a ten rounder didn't it. I always thought that man and lady going into step four Waltz Spin Turn diag to wall was because it was too inhibiting for the lady to do a half a turn on four and then the remainder of the 7/8 of a turn on five.
But I am with Harry Smith Hampshire when he wrote the technique book should be re written or with a regular suplement to acomodate what is actually being done, and which the judges are marking. If this book lasts for another decade how many thousands of teachers are going to teach from it as is.

Suomy. Whaata is the timing of this chasse if it replaces the NT?

"Suomy. Whaata is the timing of this chasse if it replaces the NT?"

Approximately four whole beats.

It's replacing steps 1-3 of the "natural" plus the following step.

If you watch teenage couples, they quite openly dance it as a chasse, being unashamed to lower into the fourth step. Older couples "know" they shouldn't do that and try to make it look more like a natural turn even though the alignment are wrong. When there is no change in the direction across the floor until after step 3, it's the kids who are right - the figure has become a chasse, and is no longer a 3 step turn at all.

Suomenona. You've lost me here. Are we still on Waltz. I doubt if any dancer past Bronze would still do a full Natural Turn. But I see high grade competitors still using the first three as an entry to Spin Turn, Pivots or whatever. If I were to use a Chasse in place of the first three Natural, unless this is Quickstep , I can't see the sense. As I said you've lost me.

There is a point of departure when a figure is so severely stretched beyond its standard parameters that it no longer embodies the spirit of its design.

That the Nat. Turn is extremely difficult is a given--this is why most dancers modify it to more manageable formats (and yes, there are a number of variations--both technically informed and otherwise).
Not the least of this is the departure of step 4 from LOD and realigning it to DW.
A glaring reason, as been pointed out, is the lack of strong technique--thus requiring the dancer to compensate for the momentum of the previous steps (hence the step to DW).

I think it would be a disservice to a true test of dance craftsmanship (which the Natural Turn is) to simply allow a modified version to "officially" take its place.

My view is, if you are going to be BOLD enough to dance a natural turn (or its first three) in competition, then dance it as specified.
Accept and surmount the attendant superhuman difficulties and attempt to create a credible facsimile thereof.

I, for one, would prefer a real Nat Turn danced correctly--however inelegantly performed.
At least there is honesty and courage in doing so.
Dancing a modified chasse AND passing it off as a Natural Turn is simply hubris, delusion, and bad technique.


m

Well, what an interesting discussion. The original posting was about step 4 of a spin turn, but we've moved on to natural turn.
For a 'full ' natural turn (which, by the way, i see no problem dancing in a comp if appropriate, and is danced really well - i see many excellent dancers doing it) there is no doubt that the third step ends with the man backing LOD and this is a 'gathering' step, lowering end of 3 and there is no forward or backward momentum or 'falling out' to distort the following step 4.
Whether or not dancers move a little out of alignment to allow the lady past on the next step (as is done in the foxtrot feather finsih) is another matter.
My view (and i'm not a championship dancer by any means) is that ultimately it is the appearance and togetherness of the couple that counts, and slight departure from the strict technique book (written how long ago in very different times?) is allowed so long as it is for very good dancing reasons.

Phil. In the original text book. The exact words are. " But it is sincerely hoped that the keen amature will regard this book as something more than a means of accquiring a knowledge of steps and variations. It is also hoped that that no student will be foolish enough to be gulled into the belief that a Parrot's knowledge of its contents will be sufficient to satisfy an astute examiner". Doesn't that say it all.
Throw this one into the pot. How many people on step four get the correct CBM. Which if it is done correctly produces a wind up an unwinding on the next step five. Again if this is done correctly, that's step four with CBM, where would anybody expect that step to go. And has it been noticed and being taught, that some are now swaying to the left from four onto five, with the lady turning her head to her right.Try it, it gives a much better exit onto 456 of a Reverse Turn That's with CBM on the first step of course..

I have read all of the above. Question, on the third step first three of a Natural into a Spin Turn, aren't we supposed to keep the body moving, never actually coming to a stand still. Isn't this why we use CBM on four, to keep the body moving. With the very ordinary dancer CBM is almost none existent, plus the good dancer will lower much more on three and onto that fourth step. Just a plain simple yes or no. Do we keep the body moving even when the feet are standing still. Does the average dancer know the benifits of CBM. Do they lower enough on three into four of a Spin Turn therefore making it look very ordinary

"I have read all of the above. Question, on the third step first three of a Natural into a Spin Turn, aren't we supposed to keep the body moving, never actually coming to a stand still."

No. Classic foot closure actions exist so that by essentially pausing the body's travel for a brief instant at the peak of the rise, you can create a new downswing in a new direction. This seems to be a widely forgotten point - with only beginners practicing classic foot closure actions, knowledge of their technique and purpose is no longer widespread at street level. A carefull reading of the syllabus book across the various foot closure figures will however show that it's true - the placement of the subsequent step, the lowering to TH (vs simply T) of the foot that closed, etc.

"Isn't this why we use CBM on four, to keep the body moving."

You use CBM on four if you wish to turn in the figure you are beginning.

"Do we keep the body moving even when the feet are standing still."

The body is stationary for an instant at where the rise switches to fall, but this is only a very small fraction of the substantial period of time when the feet are standing still.

"Does the average dancer know the benifits of CBM."

No. Nor, if recent videos are to be judged, do about half of world finalists.

"Do they lower enough on three into four of a Spin Turn therefore making it look very ordinary"

The key question is, does the heel of the foot that closed strike the floor before the now free foot starts its swing. If the answer is yes, then they have accomplished the critical part of the lowering - they need only to bend into the knee as they the start allowing the free leg to swing. If the answer is no, then the footwork of the step has been changed from HT to T, and the figure from the family of natural turns to the family of chasses.

sorry, should be: then the footwork has been changed from TH to T