We've been talking about different things. This was my original posting about keeping the weight forward
""Same for coming out of a whisk into a chassis. You guys are probably aware of this, but it's important to keep the weight forward as the heel is lowered and not let it go back onto the heel""
There is nothing wrong with exercises to give a feeling of a movement - even if it's not exactly the same as in dancing. Dancing is very complex and sometimes it's necessary to break things down one step at a time (i don't mean one dance step at a time). I've just come from several days of workshops (given by top dancers) who did this sort of thing. It's very common in other sports to practice elements of the sport away from the real thing. Did you ever learn to play a musical instrument?

"I never said the heel doesn't lower. What i said was the weight must be kept forward. I don't accept that the weight should be allowed go back over the heel"

If your weight is in your toe, you aren't standing on your heel.

The footwork for the step asks you to stand on your heel.

However, you must not move from your toe back to your heel against the direction of travel. So you must lower to the heel before your weight has a chance to fully arrive to the toe. You will have pressure into the toe before you lower, but you won't reach the point of being balanced over the toe. After you lower your weight will fully touch down in the heel, then move forward to the toe after the next step has begun.

To do it any other way is to reinvent the technique...

Phil is 100 % correct.

The concept of weight is used broadly in dancing but bio-mechanically speaking there are really 2 concepts that dancers perceive collectively as "weight", the 'point of pressure into the floor' and the 'centre of weight'. What Phil is saying about the "TH" footwork is that once the "point of pressure into the floor" is established towards the front of the foot, this "point of pressure" does not really move back to the heel as one arrives over the foot and the heel lowers. So it is possible to have the "weight" in the ball of your foot with the heel lowered to the ground. Dancers refer to this as the weight being kept forward.

Suomunona says: "The footwork for the step asks you to stand on your heel".

No, the correct footwork requires you to lower the heel to the floor, that's all.

I won't get into the "reinvent the technique" issue, that's done.

Rha

Phil is 100 % correct.

The concept of weight is used broadly in dancing but bio-mechanically speaking there are really 2 concepts that dancers perceive collectively as "weight", the 'point of pressure into the floor' and the 'centre of weight'. What Phil is saying about the "TH" footwork is that once the "point of pressure into the floor" is established towards the front of the foot, this "point of pressure" does not really move back to the heel as the "center of weight" arrives over the foot and the heel lowers. So it is possible to have the "weight" in the ball of your foot with the heel lowered to the ground. Dancers refer to this as the weight being kept forward.

Suomunona says: "The footwork for the step asks you to stand on your heel".

No, the correct footwork requires you to lower the heel to the floor, that's all.

I won't get into the "reinvent the technique" issue, that's done.

Rha

No, Rha and Phil are both wrong.

The initial pressure into the toe is not a full support of the body weight, but just enough to pace the arrival.

The first full support of the body weight is by the heel, where the weight remains until after the other foot has passed to begin the next step.

I guess I'm just lucky enough to have had teachers who made a point of driving details like this home...

"I guess I'm just lucky enough to have had teachers who made a point of driving details like this home..."

Unfortunate, perhaps? .

What you're suggesting is that the 'point of pressure' moves back against the progression while the 'centre of weight' moves forward. That's do-able. In fact that's how I used to dance when I started but it does not create the quality of continuity that I prefer.

Rha

Bit of a stupid argument this. As we move from one foot to the other the weight must pass over the heel. What you guys want is that the weight doesn't stay over the heel. So why not just say so.

"Bit of a stupid argument this. As we move from one foot to the other the weight must pass over the heel."

What do you mean by over?

And does it do this before or after the heel has touched the floor?

I think it's rather obvious that the weight and the pressure counteracting it must pass through or at some point be located at the heel during a TH step - but Phil, Rha, and perhaps Onlooker disagree.

Symmetry also makes the passages of the weight through the heel obvious: In a continued movement in closed position when one partner rolls their weight forward through the foot, the other partner rolls their weight backwards through their foot as a coordinated, complementary action.

If the man lowered TH out of the chasse, as soon as his weight is in his toe, the lady's weight must be in her heel. If he is going to have the lady's weight initially in her toe, and then lead its progress back to her heel after the free foot passes to begin the next step, then his weight must lower to his heel and move forward as part of how he leads her weight to move back.

You're right - i do disagree. The weight may pass through the heel on a forward step (like step 1 in a natural turn) but not for a whisk (not so sure about coming out of promenade), where the weight must be kept forward (i.e. primarily on the toes) and doesn't go through the heel, or even mainly through the heel - even though the heel is lowered as required for a T-H step.