Hi, I am reviewing the natural turn, only now I am trying to get a consistent transfer of energy whilst intergrating good posture, timing and avoiding the 'fall' into the next step. It sounds great however I need to improve and am finding this takes alot of strength and skill (skills that I am lacking at the moment?). My teacher says I am not drawing the second beat out enough and at worse this problem can look like I'm standing to attention. To help I have reviewed the basic waltz walks and feel that it is the strength in the standing leg (from the hip as well as the leg) that helps to maintain balance whilst collecting the weight on the second beat. The difficulty in the Natural turn is the 'turn' which tends to take me off balance and leaves me grabbing at the next step. I am questioning a couple of things in an effort to try and resolve the issue of timing,hips and foot closure. 1. In the Natural turn, when should the turn commence and 2. does the following leg closure happen as you turn or before?

Hi Sandra
This topic is going to cause lots of discussion.
I'm a man, so wouldn't be as well placed as an experienced lady dancer.
First - both of you must have good balance and control ,and unfortunately, you are at the mercy of your partner - if he falls into the next figure, you have to follow him.
Here are some answers to your questions:
You are on the inside of the natural turn and your second step is onto the toe on your right foot. Your turn commences at the end of beat 1, with a rotation of your upper body clockwise (the same as the turn). This CBM matches that of your partner and is lead by him. As the lady, your turn is almost complete as you place your second step on beat 2. You should be rising on your toe as you place this second step(the technique book asks for body rise and foot rise).
Then your left foot closes to the right on the third step on beat 3. All turning should be complete as your feet close and you should be on the toes of both feet at this point. You MUST both be balanced on beat 3 (which means you could stop in this position for several seconds).This is the control you must have. Both you and your partner achieve this control through body and foot rise, which absorbs your energy of movement (and also by using sway).
Between beat 3 and the following beat 1 of the next bar, there is an important 'gathering'. You lower on 3& and then move forward with your right foot and so on (assuming a complete natural turn).
You must have the balance to complete the lowering without 'falling' onto the next beat 1. It's more a matter of practice and achieving good balance than strength. I don't think strength is important, though of course, you must have good muscle control.
You can practise balance. I've discussed this a lot with my physio who tells me that it's something to do with training the brain's response to nerve pathway signals, or something like that! Anyway, the 'diving board' position is a great exercise - do it 3 times a day. And of course, make sure your partner does it too - on pain of death!
Hope this is helpful - i'm sure there'll be lots on this.

"This topic is going to cause lots of discussion."

You're right.

"Your turn commences at the end of beat 1, with a rotation of your upper body clockwise (the same as the turn). This CBM matches that of your partner and is lead by him."

This CBM rotation occurs at the beginning of a step, not the end.

"As the lady, your turn is almost complete as you place your second step on beat 2."

Yes and no. The turn is complete in the lady's right foot at this early point - the step is formally a "pointing alignment" where the foot reaches the new alignment before the body (and before the foot even has weight). However the body will complete the turn more slowly.

"All turning should be complete as your feet close"

Again, yes and no. When the feet close, the body will still be underturned perhaps 1/8 of a turn relative to them. The body will not catch up to the feet until the CBM for the next step, which would occur as you start to lower at the end of 3.

"Between beat 3 and the following beat 1 of the next bar, there is an important 'gathering'. You lower on 3& and then move forward with your right foot and so
on (assuming a complete natural turn)."

Yes, but it's important that the body moves forward before the foot does. Doing this without stumbling will require precise control, which is why at first many get in the habit of moving their foot in advance of their body. (Note that the backwards person's foot will move back a small amount even as they are lowering - there's nobody in their way, and their doing this keeps you from bumping knees as you lower)

In terms of the step two action, the key is for the lady to move in a straight line on step one, not letting the CBM rotation of her body change the direction of her step. She then opens her right hip and points her right foot down LOD, while essentially waiting for the man to dance past her. Finally she catches up, dancing onto her right foot. If the lady does curve her first step more, the hold will need to expand some during step two to accomodate the difference in direction - otherwise she's going to act as an anchor and pull the man into a sharp turn that slingshots around her. The man's body should still be moving diagonally forward as his weight transfers to step 2 - but if he slingshots around her, it will be moving diagonally backward.

Sandra. This is a debatable one, considering the first Natural Turn in the Modern Waltz was introduce by Victor Silvester about 1922 and it is still discussed how it should be done today. Basicly as man or lady you should not turn untill the end of step one. The way it is being taught today is to slit each beat into two halfs This will give you a timing of
1 & 2 & 3 & . Each (and ) has an action. You will notice that the closure of the feet takes place on the (and ) so we have'1 & 2 &. This leaves the third beat to be at your highest and lowest which is 3 &
On the first step which is backing diag to wall for the lady on the LF. On the (and) count after one, the RF should be under your hips and then to the side having made, according to the book, 3/8ths of a turn as you step to the side. Also bend the left knee which will give you a good push to the side
So we have a step. A collection of weight. A step to the side. And a closing of the feet . And a rise and fall. With 3/8ths of a turn over each step. Some prefer to do 1/4 of a turn at the end of the first step. The only other thing is let the man swing past on step two . Then follow him up. Do not arrive before the partner. There is no foot rise for the lady on step one. This is down in the book as NFR. For the man there is foot rise at the end of one. If you have, or can take a look at the diagrams in the technique book it will give you the exact foot positions. Best of luck

"Basicly as man or lady you should not turn untill the end of step one."

Perhaps we need to define the word "turn" or simply forget it and use more specific words.

There are two things that happen during the natural turn: a rotation in the orientation of the body, and change in direction of movement across the floor.

CBM, which occurs at the start of step 1, is a rotation of the body without a corresponding change in direction of motion. Both dancers continue to move in the original, commencing direction of the figure, which was to DW.

The man moves onto step two still going DW. But as the lady catches up late in step two, her motion may have a hint of the LOD direction to follow. By the end of the figure, the new direction, LOD, has been established, and this is indicated in the direction in which the bodies progress (slightly) as they lower from step three.

In the smooth dances, rotation and change of direction of travel do not tend to occur together. Instead, rotation sets up for a later change of direction which will not become evident for an additional step or two. That's why the book says "commence to turn" - the CBM rotation is the action which commences a turn, but it is not a turn by itself.

It might be worth reading Our Circumference, which touches on this subject