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Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by Quickstep
4/30/2006  9:53:00 PM
Puzzled. Try balance on every 3rd step then lower, do this all through the Foxtrot Basics. That does not mean stop, the movement keeps going and is referred to by the experts as seamless.
Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by Quickstep
5/2/2006  5:52:00 AM
Puzzled. Take a tip from one who has been through it all before. Find out for yourself does your heel arrive before the body weight, slightly. Is it on two straightish knees at the extent of the stride. Or do we arrive on a bent knee. Like unfortunately ladies often do.Now from the book.
In the actual Walk, this is Waltz as well as Foxtrot. Take the weight first on the stationary foot.At the full extent of the stride it is divided for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the rear foot. It is taken immediately on to the front foot as this foot becomes flat.
( that is the weight). I'll go to the next paragraph. The knees should be easily and naturally relaxed throughout the walk. The knees are only straight at the extent of the stride but not rigid". For me this means that my first step into a Reverse Turn will be performed also as the above. Do this correctly and build on it. You now have something to check on your videos. The main differences with today and in the past is the bending of the knee as the weight arrives on it in preperation for the next step. Todays dancers really bend. It's all there if anybody cares to look. Balance points on a Walk. Wouldn't you say it is as the moving foot comes along side the standing foot.
Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by Anonymous
5/2/2006  6:11:00 AM
"The main differences with today and in the past is the bending of the knee as the weight arrives on it in preperation for the next step. Todays dancers really bend. It's all there if anybody cares to look. Balance points on a Walk. Wouldn't you say it is as the moving foot comes along side the standing foot."

The amount of bend is simply proportional to the amount of travel. Today's dancers who are travelling more than yesterday should bend their knees a lot. Today's dancer who are not travelling more are just being silly if they bend that much.

There is no balance point as the feet draw together. The balance of forces here would require that the body continue moving. Only if you do waltz rise to closure would you reach something like a balance point.
Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by Quickstep
5/10/2006  11:23:00 PM
Puzzled. We are balanced before we step off. The next point of balance is after the second quick of a Feather Step. As the LF arrives beside the RF there is a count of (and) this is a neutral position That is at the end of the third step. There is another after the next three steps and so on. This does not mean stop. But it is a place where the distribution weight can be straightend if we for instance did a not our best first part of our Reverse Turn, we can regroup. See John Woods for the balance points. Clearly seen and suggested before the Reverse and before the Natural which comes after after the Three Step. I know a Professional Competitor who practices this solo every day.Just like a Latin dancer who would do the Rumba Walks every day without fail. There is only one way to find out, and that is to find thoes balance points. And then just blast your way through them with little or no thought that they are even there. See which feels and looks the best .
Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by suomynona
5/11/2006  7:27:00 AM
"Puzzled. We are balanced before we step off."

Not unless you are dancing without body flight, taking each step individually. Many practice this way, but it's no way to dance foxtrot.

"The next point of balance is after the second quick of a Feather Step."

Nope - you are still moving there. Balance is present only in the sense that you can retain control if you keep moving. If you try to stop, you should face a choice between breaking body alignment and falling over. If you avoid that choice, you were dancing without body flight.

"As the LF arrives beside the RF there is a count of (and) this is a neutral position"

You must pass through this position at a speed greater than at any other point in the cycle of a foxtrot basic movement. Also note that your body must be beyond this alleged neutral position before your feet pass.

"I know a Professional Competitor who practices this solo every day."

Many distortions of actual ballroom movement can be worth practicing to improve certain other details. But hopefully this person does not actually dance that way - though if they do, they are hardly the only high placing professional making this mistake.

"Just like a Latin dancer who would do the Rumba Walks every day without fail. There is only one way to find out, and that is to find thoes balance points."

Rumba walks actually have balance points... Foxtrot walks do not, when performed the way they are during the dance.

"And then just blast your way through them with little or no thought that they are even there."

Yes, but the continuos version is different than the one at a time version - the continuous version does not have, cannot have, any balance points. If it did, it would be choppy and discontinous.
Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by sqq
5/11/2006  10:38:00 AM
Straight constant velocity does not produce any forces. Acceleration and deceleration do produce horizontal forces and those are needed on dancing. To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

When walking continuously there are two special balance points, when no horizontal forces are needed for balance of moments. At these points the balance point of the body approaches at constant velocity. At one point deceleration ends and acceleration begins and at another point acceleration ends and deceleration begins.

Energy of deceleration pushes the body forward, until the moving foot is passing the standing foot and the body begins to fall forward, end of deceleration. At that point must the horizontal force of pushing of the supporting foot begin to produce a forward acceleration which produces a backward force towards the body and moving foot to balance moments and avoid falling forward. Between deceleration and acceleration the velocity is constant and the balance point of the body is above the standing foot and no horizontal forces are needed. From a “time value” point of view the step begins at the moment of time when pushing of the standing foot begins at the strike of count one.

When the moving foot lands and the pushing of the old supporting foot ends, ends acceleration and deceleration begins. Between acceleration and deceleration the velocity is constant and the balance point of the body is between feet which both are on the floor at full stride and no horizontal forces are needed. Then the deceleration produces a forward force which pushes the mass of the body on the new standing foot until deceleration again ends and acceleration begins. Deceleration begins at the strike of count two.

Straightening of the knee of the moving foot produces the highest acceleration on the foot but the mass of the foot is low and the moment mass x acceleration x height counts. Upper body has more mass and height from the point of the moment which is the ball of the supporting foot.

All above supposing that there are no up and down movements which also are to use.

My main interest in dancing is physics of dance movements. It should be interesting to have a topic of physics for those interested in subject.
Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by phil.samways
5/12/2006  3:41:00 AM
I've been following these discussions, and apart from the dancing issues, there are a lot of comments which aren't in line with the laws of physics. I think it's important to apply physics correctly to get a complete understanding of what's happening.
For example:
"""Then the deceleration produces a forward force which pushes the mass of the body on the new standing foot until deceleration again ends and acceleration begins"""
Decelleration (of the body in this case)cannot produce a forward force (on the body in this case). Decelleration would be caused by a force in the opposite direction (i.e. trying to push the body back since we're talking about forward movement here). Where does this force come from? the friction from the floor at the contact with the foot of the new standing leg. The body keeps moving forward because of momentum. An object can continue to have momentum even if there is no force on it.
Sorry to be so picky, but it's important in the long run
Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by Quickstep
5/12/2006  9:53:00 PM
Suomynona. That was not Puzzled you were answering. Anyway, If I am not balanced before I step, what am I , sitting down maybe. Nobody would suggest and most certainly not me that the feet will come to a stop. Being that the third step of the Feather has a toe lower and that the step is smaller than the other two. It is practically a foot position only. There is plenty of time for a balance point as there is on every third step in our Basics. It might be worth deliberatly being off balance on your Feather just to prove the point that a recovery is possible on that balance point. That is if the weight is correctly over the RF. But be off balance and just blast your way through that part will create a disaster from that point on. This seems an interesting subject that Puzzled introduced and asked . How many balance points there are in a Forward Walk in the Foxtrot. 32 answers on 2 pages.
Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by sqq
5/13/2006  8:08:00 AM
“Question is: What causes inertia, working as a force opposite to the force by which the particle is influenced?” by some famous physicist.

Braking with the landed foot(HT) is the force which decelerates the mass of the body and produces a forward force.

When the old supporting foot has pushed forward and is off the floor, new standing foot(HT) becomes the point about moment and the balance point of the body is behind it. Gravity tends to pull the body downwards behind the standing foot. Gravity and distance(x) from point about moment tend to rotate the mass of he body backwards. To have balance of moments must there be a forward force. The forward force is produced by braking with landed foot(HT) which slows down the velocity. The deceleration produces the forward force needed. The forward force x mass of body x height(y) of balance point of the body from the floor is equal and opposite to moment mgx and tends to rotate the body forward. Thus the moments mgx=may are in balance. As long as the balance point of the body is behind the landed foot(HT) and the pushed foot is off the floor there must be a forward force produced by deceleration.

The forward force needed can be demonstrated by standing on both feet at full stride. You can ask somebody to push you forward on the standing foot or yourself pull you forward on the standing foot. The decelerating force is equal and opposite to the force needed.

Momentum is mass x velocity. When walking the push of the standing foot increases momentum on every step by impulse force x time the pushing lasts. To avoid the velocity increase step by step must momentum also be decreased by an opposite and equal impulse on every step by braking with landed foot(HT) during the time the deceleration pushes the body on the new standing foot. Imagine while walking that there suddenly were not any friction under the landing foot and the body could not decelerate. You could never get on the foot. Constant velocity and momentum neither push nor pull.

My PC doesn't accept the word decelleration. English is my second and rarely used language.
Re: Forward Walk in Slow Foxtrot.
Posted by Puzzled
5/13/2006  8:49:00 AM
Sqq
Are you saying that the points of balance are infinite when transferring the body weight from the back supporting foot to the new forward supporting foot? Also when I'm at the full extent of my forward stride the body weight will be more forward than central?

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