Don, you've managed to do a pretty thorough job of confusing yourself:

"Starting backing diagnal to the centre. If you stop on the second step your naval will be facing down the LOD.
If on the second step your feet are in the correct alignment and your naval is still pointing diagnal to the wall you are in a twisted position. Hard on the back isn't it."

No, that would not be twisted position at all, it would be a body square to feet position. Not CBMP, but not the least bit twisted either. Not that twisting is bad per se, but what you have described is not an example of it in any way.

"Turn all of the side as a unit and do step four.Do it again this time move your shoulders without the hips. Hard on the back isn't it."

Not if you do it right it isn't in the least. However, you have to move both your hips and shoulder, while turning your top somewhat earlier than your hips (this is a natural action). You can't leave your hips in your partner's way and pull your top away - you do have to move your hips back to let your partner come forward. You seem to have wanted to omit that from other actions and step with the foot only, leaving the body behind, and that, not the turning, is likely your real problem.

"Do you think the spine is twisted on a Double Reverse."

Most definitely, as this is abosolutely critical to the initation of a strong reverse CBM for a heel turn, without knocking your partner over as would happen if your rotated your topline with your hips.

"What about a Open Telemark. Does that need a twisted spine."

Yes, at the beggining for the same reason as the double reverse, and also at the end, because promenade almost always needs a twist about the spine. If dancing as man, you want to open your hip, while leaving your top quite closed to your partner. If dancing as lady, your hip stops rotating slighlty open, but your top continues to rotate so that you stay parallel to your partner in the topline.

For a natural promenade opening, it works the other way - man's top rotates more than hips, lady's hips rotate more than top.

"Are you going to twist around your own centre. Oh, that poor back."

As these are entirely natural human actions, you must already have some sort of injury preventing you from doing what everyone else finds so comfortable.

"I said do we ever twist our spine . The answer was never."

Sadly, most dance teachers are not experts in explaining human movement in words. Quite often, what they say is not what they want or do, and the advanced student is left to figure out what they really mean, and how that differs from what they said.

"And to put that sort of information in front of anyone who is tying to teach themselves how to dance or a beginner"

No one should be trying to teach themselves to dance. However, these ideas are key if you hope to move beyond the short-term approximations and exercises taught to beginners, and start to learn the real truth about real dancing as it is done today.

"Which book says, twist torque or whatever you wish to call it, the spine."

Which book says don't?

I don't think you guys know what a twisted spine is. Yo might thinK\k you are twisting and you are not. Do the first two steps of a ladies Feather Step. you would swing your side around with the rest of your body. Starting backing diagnal to the centre. If you stop on the second step your naval will be facing down the LOD.
If on the second step your feet are in the correct alignment and your naval is still pointing diagnal to the wall you are in a twisted position. Hard on the back isn't it.
Get onto step Three of a Spin Turn. We need CBM. Turn all of the side as a unit and do step four.Do it again this time move your shoulders without the hips. Hard on the back isn't it.
Do you think the spine is twisted on a Double Reverse. Better think again. Not many more types of turn to go. What about a Open Telemark. Does that need a twisted spine. Are you going to twist around your own centre. Oh, that poor back. I'd love to see you guys do a Telespin. I did ask about this one . I said do we ever twist our spine . The answer was never. And to put that sort of information in front of anyone who is tying to teach themselves how to dance or a beginner, is plain stupid. Last comment . Which book says, twist torque or whatever you wish to call it, the spine.

Yes Phill, rotating the body to different angles around the spine is absolutely a necessary skill.

It should be remembered though that there are many more ways to do it wrong then the few ways that would be beneficial.

If thinking about rotation, think about what needs to rotate now, vs. what would cause problems if it also rotated now. In thinking about position, think about which direction towards the partner's center would be, vs which direction of other body parts would facilitate movement.

These are the sources of the need for "twist".

"Do we go to a straight leg back and front on all Walks. Social Dancers don't worry. Competition Dancers must."

Please explain specifically which actions in actual competition dancing are literarlly and exactly supposed to be textbook "walks".

Many actions are related to walks, but there are hardly any actual complete walks.

And as always, especially in competition, a detail which is out of scale to the actual context in which it was performed is inexcusable wrong - even if it would be proper in the context that should have framed it.

If you are not creating enough body movement to fully straighten your legs, then it is a sever mistake to fully straighten your legs. You need to work on creating more body movement first, or you can choose to dance higher so that less movement would be required to get to a straight leg (this option is probably not a choice for competitors though).

"Others believe that the heel becomes a ball after only travelling a few inches."

What is proper as always depends on something else - in this case it depends on the position of the body. As the foot comes under the body, it will have to flatten. However, if the body has already moved past the standing foot before the moving foot passes it - which is what should be happening in a number of cases, then the moving foot will stay on a heel longer, because it has not yet gotten close enough to being under the body for the natural ankle angle to flatten the foot (still without weight of course) to the floor.

As for watching - do so. You will find it quite rare to see a dancer mid-stride between two fully straight legs. Even the best can rarely get there in coordinated movement, though any fool can and will do it uncoordinated.

Time to kill off this spine-twisting thing.
Some points:
1)Which technique book specifies that the spine mustn't be twisted except in exceptional cicumstances?
2)Why wouldn't a healthy person want to use the capabilities of their body to do any activity, including dancing?
3)Using the joints 'properly' is good for them - yes, even if they're slightly injured. For example, runners with problem knees are advised that, as long as the pain doesn't prevent their normal running action (for example, they don't have to 'favour' one leg)the benefits out-weigh any damage.
Twisting the spine (reasonably) while in good dance posture poses no threats whatever.
If you want to shorten your active life, lie in bed all day with your joints inactive (keeping your spine stiff and untwisted, of course).
4)The top dancers twist their spines all the time, as the photographs clearly show.

Anonymous. You might have to re-visit five.
Standing upright to me is spine stretched and perfectly balanced.The ribcage should feel as though it was being lifted off the hips.
Do we go to a straight leg back and front on all Walks. Social Dancers don't worry. Competition Dancers must. This is where you go to the extreme part of the toe to be able to get the leg straight, that last little push off the toe going forward we need it. And that last push off the front foot when going backwards. Debatable here. Some believe the heel is pulled all the way back. Others believe that the heel becomes a ball after only travelling a few inches. Who is your favourite dancer on DVD. Why not put it into slow motion and watch the feet. Do they go to the last part of their toe or not. Have you noticed how high these ladies get the heel off the floor.

"We have trouble with some people who change the subject of a posting completely away from what it was."

Takes one to know one.

"What is standing upright."

Not worth getting into, but it is not enough to stand upright. You must stand upright with your body in the correct position relative to the feet.

"Do we go right to the tip
of the toe on both front
and back foot on a Walk."

Only if the body movement is large enough to warrant it.

"When done correctly on a
front or back walk do we
get to a position where both
legs are straight and the body
is in the middle."

Only if the body movement is great enough in relation to the degree of knee bend present when the body passed over that foot that the legs will have a chance to straighten. Not all dance figures should do this. If you want to define a "walk" as an exercise that by definition must do this, you are free to do that - but be careful not to confuse and exercise with a dance figure!

"If you want to limit your
dancing years. Keep twisting
your spine out of alignment."

If you want to destroy any chance of easy movement, refuse to rotate your body parts to different angles around your spine...

"What gets to the end of a walk
first the leg or the body."

Depends on what you mean by the end. If you mean the end of the step - when the feet pass - then the body crossed through the point in space where the feet will pass slightly before the feet pass.

"Does the body carry the legs
or do the legs carry the body"

The body carries the legs, the legs _support_ the body.

"That's enough for a start. Before answering, look at your videos or go to the learning centre and look."

You would of course have to choose videos that demonstrate perfection in dancing, not just consumate performance.

We have trouble with some people who change the subject of a posting completely away from what it was.

What is standing upright.

Do we go right to the tip
of the toe on both front
and back foot on a Walk.

When done correctly on a
front or back walk do we
get to a position where both
legs are straight and the body
is in the middle.

If you want to limit your
dancing years. Keep twisting
your spine out of alignment.

What gets to the end of a walk
first the leg or the body.

Does the body carry the legs
or do the legs carry the body

That's enough for a start. Before answering, look at your videos or go to the learning centre and look.

"If your naval as a lady second step Feather is still facing diagnal to wall on that second step they are in the man's way. As we know the person going backwards clears a path. The person going forward has the straight line with CBM swing and sway."

No. The person going backwards does not "clear a path" unless they were trained by someone who had suffered a spinal fusion. Rather, the person going backwards, along with the person going forwards, adopts a CBMP shape. This creates a path while leaving one body directly in the path of the other. No loss of relative position is needed, and none will be tolerated. The movement has to be accomodated through the use of body flight and body shape.

And that would of course be CBMP, not CBM!

"Double Reverse Spin Man. Your not turning into your step are you, but at the end of step one."

Of course there must be turn into step 1 - that is the basic idea of CBM. However, it is also true that you cannot yet rotate the topline, or you will push your partner over. So you rotate the business part of the body - the hips - into step 1 while leaving the top unturned. And then at the end of step 1 you turn the top. Guess what happens in between - yes, body twist! Either learn to love it or quit ballroom and take up salsa...

"Is there a flexed knee at the end of one. "

Not when leading a or dancing a followers heel turn, yes when leading a waltz turn, and yes when dancing a leader's heel turn.

Anonymous. First the path has been cleared at the end of step one by the lady, The lady invites the man through. The man should have a feeling of going past the lady simular to a Lockstep.
Any arguements on whether to turn in anywhere but at the end of step one Double Reverse please look at your charts page 134. This has nothing to do with CBM.
Today we dance in our own space. Step four of a Natural Spin Turn for the man we clear a path for the lady which allows her to take her step four down the LOD whilst the man's step is more diagnal to the wall. As it was explained to me. If we both step down the LOD at the same time are we not in each others way. This is something to look for on your instuction videos. Does the person going backwards clear a path or not.In slow motion look at the first second step of the Feather by the lady. If you can, take a line where the navel is pointing at the beginning of the step and after step one. I doubt whether there is any step where we are supposed to turn into it at the beginning of the step. This is in Latin also. Try it on a Spot Turn. Step first then turn.