When a musician learns to read music, they also learn how to play the musical notation (such as a dotted note)with 'mathematical' precision. that doesn't mean they play with this mathematical precision all the time - they play artistically of course. but this artistic interpretation is based on an understanding of good solid basics.
Quickstep - thanks for your response, but i am still not sure. when you say use three half beats to step, would this be, for example, first step on beat 1 and second step on beat 2&? Then when you say bring the foot under the body for the half beat, would this mean place the foot on 3 for another slow.? So slow & slow would mean foot placements on 1, 2&, 3 and 1 again?

"When a musician learns to read music, they also learn how to play the musical notation (such as a dotted note)with 'mathematical' precision. that doesn't mean they play with this mathematical precision all the time - they play artistically of course. but this artistic interpretation is based on an understanding of good solid basics."

The difference is that for a musician, the thing that matters (when the note starts and stops) is easily determined and controlled.

For a dancer doing foxtrot, it is quite certain that the exact time when the foot is placed is NOT a factor of primary artistic or technical attention. There's a right answer, but nobody can really tell you what it is, because the proper attention is elsewhere - on the body timing. You need to look at the big picture and get that right, which will result in getting the foot time right "by feel" rather than by math. Because trust me, the math is far uglier than you want to see... not nice fractions at all!

Phil,

You would have been wise to ask your question in the context of another dance, since Foxtrot is obviously going to engage these two guys in a conversation about ideas which are totally irrelevant to your question. So to avoid such a burden altogether, let's place it in a context where Foxtrot foot timing is not a factor: Rumba.

As a rule of thumb, the "and" count takes the last half-beat away from whichever count precedes it. So, for example, a "slow" count which is normally two full beats, when followed by an "and", has a half beat stolen from it, and the resulting duration is one and a half beats. In musical terms, this is a dotted quarter followed by an eighth note.

So yes, the answer to your question would be step on 1, then the "&" after 2.

Now if you want to go back to Foxtrot to see how that applies, it's actually quite interesting. If you were to dance an "elongated" Foxtrot slow whereby the foot strikes on beat 2, then the timing of your foot placements would be "(1), 2& 3, 4" for S&QQ rhythm. (The number 1 is in parenthesis to indicate that it doesn't have a step).

However, when it comes to S&QQ (or S&S&) rhythm, depending on the exact quality of the steps, chances are you're not going to be using the elongated slow anyway. The rhythm is becoming so abstract that it's bordering on unreadable, even when executed precicely. So when it comes to "S&" rhythm, one should actually just step squarely on the 1 (or 3) beat.

Remember that with "Slow &" rhythm, you're taking two steps over the course of two beats. It is, in fact, simply a variation of "QQ" rhythm. And as a result, much of the reason for elongating the slow is diminished. If you think of "S&" as being a variation of "QQ", then it makes perfect sense to take the first step on count 1, not 2.

I hope this answers your question.

Regards,
Jonathan

"Remember that with "Slow &" rhythm, you're taking two steps over the course of two beats. It is, in fact, simply a variation of "QQ" rhythm. And as a result, much of the reason for elongating the slow is diminished. If you think of "S&" as being a variation of "QQ", then it makes perfect sense to take the first step on count 1, not 2."

I like the idea of treating it as a variation on QQ - in fact, that was what I had originally suggested, and doing the variability of the variation by "feel" rather than by "math"

I don't think it's at all resolved that four quicks QQQQ would actually land on beats 1234... in fact, I think it's pretty well established that they wont, but will land a bit after those beats.

Which is why I argue for seperating the "amount of time" "timing" from the details of execution. Get the right "amount of time" and get the feel which gives the right accents.

Phil. I've always accepted that in the Foxtrot Feather Step we count the first step as slow and. This gives us two beats for one step. being that the foot arrives under the body it must be given a beat value or part of a beat value.. This is why John Wood on his tape said we split the two beats into four 1/2 beats. We use three halves to step and one half for the moving leg to arrive under the body . It must arrive and pass to be able to continue dancing. Whilst this is going on we have the shoulders dancing a different timing to the feet. Where it gets interesting is that on the second quick of the Feather he also splits that beat, and arrives with his LF under the body, which he calls a neutral position, This is on a quick and count. And is now ready to do the first step of the Reverse Turn. The lesson to be learnt here is that is what we do without thinking about it because there is simply no other way of doing it.If I move my rear leg forward it is going to pass under my body it must take some part of the beat. It doesn't disappear and reappear of and on the radar. Does that make sense or not. Be like me and just dance it, and let those that want to make it something more than it is be my guest.

In Foxtrot a slow = 2 beats, and a quick = 1 beat. So you would break a slow into 2 quicks. Not 4

A slow is twice as long as a quick.
A quick is half the time of a slow.
So depending on the dance a slow can be one beat and a quick two half beats, or a slow is 2 beats and a quick is one beat.

KISS, keep it simple.

4 x 4. Music S. S. = 1 bar of music
QQQQ = 1 bar of music
S QQ = 1 bar of music
QQ S = 1 bar of music
If you dance a Syncopated Chasse in the Foxrot the first step will be a
S which = 2 beats followed by Q and Q. which again is 1 bar of music. Don't make the mistake of dancing the first step as a Q. it will not fit the music.

Jonathan
many thanks for your response.
One of the motivations for my original posting was to improve our fallaway reverse turn in the foxtrot. I believe this should be danced S, &Q, Q. I understand what has been said about the foxtrot requiring a sometimes complex and to some extent undefinable manipulation of the 'strict' rhythm, and i can to some small extent do this .However, there's an element of 'back to basics' here and what i was trying to do is clap out the S,&q,Q rhythm so that my partner will know what i'm trying to achieve. I actually find it quite difficult to lead my partner into this tempo because of the body positions at the crucial time (if anyone has good ideas on this point they'd be MOST welcome). We often dance the figure as 4 quicks, which works quite well. But i'm getting fussy in my old age!
My clapping rhythm is the following beats: 1, 2.5, 3, 4. I just wanted to make sure i have this correct.

Fallaway Reverse Turn and Reverse Pivot demonstrated by Marcus Hilton and narrated by Geoffrey Hearn is as you do S & Q Q This is followed by an Oversway. Hover to PP. Open Natural Turn. Page 4 Ballroom Lines. It might be a good idea if you have a tape to check how much of the ladies upper body ( chest ) is in contact with the mans and stays there.

Actually, quickstep, i have that tape and have forgotten about it. i'll check it out tonight. We end our 3 fallaways with an oversway and hover to PP so it'll be interesting to see his version