"I do Int. Waltz and find it difficult too. The American Smooth waltz really moves, the Int. Waltz just pokes along."

Actually it moves a lot.

But it is easier to learn to do a bad job of making the foot passing waltz move than it is to do a bad job of making the foot closure waltz move - so movement, even poorly controlled - shows up first in the foot passing waltz.

It may even be that you have to dance that way for a while before you are ready to tackle the challenges of creating controlled movement in the foot closure waltz.

I was told by an instructor to dance Int. waltz or other int. dances only for about a year or so and then go back to American Smooth. One's technique will improve and will carry over to better smooth. It is easy to get sloppy with American Smooth and all the open work.

The typical Int. Waltz routine that I do: Natural Turn, Closed Change, Reverse Turn, Whisk, Chasse from Promanade, Hesitation, Progressive Chasse, Back Lock, Outside change, Spin Turn, Double reverse spin turns, Weave, Impetus, Reverse Corte, Back Whisk and start over. There are parts of the routine that moves, but some with the foot closures feel like I am not moving much. However the technique on all of this has to be precise or you will hurt your ladys back and things will fall apart quickly. Int. Waltz is very challenging, more so than Foxtrot for me.

In an International competition Waltz.. or in a Demonstration you may see a Closed Change.But you will never see it before or after a Natural Turn . You will never see a Natural Turn at all. So if the very best dancers in the world don' t do a Natural Turn what are we trying to prove ?. The same in a Foxtrot. When was the last time you saw a Natural Turn in a competition or a demonstration. And what do the teachers do. They push it onto relative beginners.
My opinion for what it is worth. I agree with your teacher. Use the International Style as a training thing. One of the best American Smooth pair who retired undefeated were both trained Ballroom and Latin before they entered the Smooth arena. I' m talking Toni Redpath and her husband dance partner. If you want a bit of history she was a one time partner to Paul Richardson who is still right at the top in Professional Latin. Good luck

"In an International competition Waltz.. or in a Demonstration you may see a Closed Change.But you will never see it before or after a Natural Turn."

Closed changes are rare in competition, but certainly they are demonstrated before a natural turn in situations where they are taught. Having a good closed change is probably a prerequisite to having a tolerable whisk anyway.

"You will never see a Natural Turn at all."

I won't? Guess I'm imagining the start of 95% of the waltzes I've ever seen.

"So if the very best dancers in the world don' t do a Natural Turn what are we trying to prove ?."

But they do!

"The same in a Foxtrot. When was the last time you saw a Natural Turn in a competition or a demonstration."

At the last competition I attended, about three weeks ago. (And that's not even counting the ones I did there...)

"Use the International Style as a training thing."

Oh, I get it, you've been watching smoothies. Try watching international style competition and you'll see professional performances of those basic elements.

I am not talking about a competition on your local village green. I say again . You will never see a full Natural Turn in the Waltz in an Open competition anywhere. It is possible to dance for the next 50 years or so and never have do one. Why. It is a very uninterersting step . It is far better to teach a Spin Turn or an Imputus Turn open or closed.. If they are a class of complete beginners It is possible to dance four bars of Waltz ( start facing diag to wall with the LOD )involving two quarter of a turn over the twelve steps. At the completion of the twelve steps a Whisk and Chasse can be introduced and continue. For those of you who know what an Outside Change is, it is slightly simular without the feet passing instead we bring them together and continue backwards with a Closed Change and with a quarter of a turn to face diag to wall. This isn' t some crackpot idea. It is used all over the world. It is also very handy if the floor is crowded and you are trying to stretch your legs at a competition and to get the feel of the floor and the music. In other words use it as warm up exercise. The Outside Change done correctly is also very handy to have in this situation.

"I am not talking about a competition on your local village green."

Nor was I.

"I say again . You will never see a full Natural Turn in the Waltz in an Open competition anywhere."

Say again? No, that is the FIRST TIME you have specified that you were talking about a "full" natural.

"Why. It is a very uninterersting step . It is far better to teach a Spin Turn or an Imputus Turn open or closed.."

Actually it's probably not better to do that right away. These involve a pivoting action of the foot against the floor, either on the ball or the heel of the foot depending on which and which version, and that requires a degree of tone in the standing leg which most beginners are not yet capable of achieving.

Also, the back half of the natural is conceptually simpler to remember - just do what you did on the first three steps, only swap jobs.

I used the word full Natural Turn because I could see that to you a Natural Turn is only the first three. Earlier if I said a Natural Turn it means one thing only. and I say again .You will not see a Natural Turn in an Open Grade Competition or in a demonstration. I also added that in a class of beginners it is possible to do a series of steps which has a nice movement about it, keeps moving, and has less turns it. The turns are two quarter turns. With the amount of turning to a minimum it is possible to encourage heel leads where they are required, also how to keep in contact with the floor, just as it instructed in the technique book. Less turns. More time to think .

"I used the word full Natural Turn"

Actually, QUICKSTEP, you didn't.

REDRIDING did. Are you unable to keep track of your multiple personalities?

"because I could see that to you a Natural Turn is only the first three."

Apparently you aren't aware that the second half is nothing but a role reversal of the first...

"I also added that in a class of beginners it is possible to do a series of steps which has a nice movement about it, keeps moving, and has less turns it. "

Sure, you could also dance quickstep. But neither one would expose you to the technqiue of the 3/8 turn waltz figures... which is SUBSTANITLALY DIFFERENT than the technique of 1/4 turn waltz figures!

You could also teach them the rhythm foxtrot instead...

The whole idea of the teaching is for a class of say 12 couples all beginners not to do the 3/8 of a turn otherwise they will have to do the other 3/8 of a turn and this we dont want. The rhythm dancing you mentioned is always taught first in the first half of the class. Followed by the quarter Turn Waltz. This is a method I have seen which works. And everybody goes home happy.
I' ve also seen the other way and that is trying to teach a group of beginners a Change Step Natural Turn a Change Step and a Reverse Turn. Which the next morning no one can remember. Isn't that right. This other way I have seen them left to themselves to practise after the class and managing very well. This four bar group is so easy to remember that the next time in they dont need to re-learn it. They are dancing straight away. So now they have time to do a Basic Cha Cha as well as the Rhythm Foxtrot again. Method Method tried and proved.

Sure, you can teach a simplified waltz with fewer steps, however:

- at some point they'll have to learn a more complete set of elements.

- full natural and full reverse turns are a complete set, with a first-approximation symmetry that aids memory

- spin turns and impetus turns add extra, unique physical challenges and complicate the overall progression

- so do a whisk and chasse - suddently you have to add concern for CBMP, lowering with the feet apart, and a much more complicated floormap.