Terence. As we all know if there is no turn out of the foot there will be a gap between the thighs. This can look rather ugly . See Slavik 's DVD and the advice given by Karina. Those who have the Cha DVD look again its very important.

You have obviously never spent any time among " latinos "

I have probably forgotten more about " street " latin than slavik will ever know .Thats not usually the format that comp. dancers persue, and thats OK.
I was trained in Intern latin by the best, close to 60 yrs ago-- that concept went out the window whilst being introduced to the indigenous form, from the people who invented it, in the states .

I know not ONE teacher in the states and anyone else involved solely in Salsa ( and I have taught all over the states and in the UK ) that teaches that foot position in street style salsa ..

It took me many yrs to adapt to the street style, and that is what I still teach, and dance , today .

The majority of B/room people have never spent one single nite in a true latin club.
How can anyone begin to comprehend a culture and its music, if all they are involved in , is a competitive sport ?-- at best, its a cabaret form of dance and bears little relationship to what any latino, from any country, that dances Mambo /Salsa .

The sad truth is, many teachers seldom broaden their horizons, and continue on in the same old way until they retire .

I believe it is incumbent upon me as a Prof. , to continue my education as long as I am teaching . ( and I,m a dual fellow all divisions, and a former exam. ) still learning new things.

there is a very famous coach who went to Cuba recently-- they came back amazed at the style of dance that they were dancing doing Cha on 1 .
This was related in a lengthy dance article.

I responded,--- " that is how the dance originated, and that the Americans and English " anglicised " the dance, which they still dance today-- namely Guajira."( which incidentally came from triple Mambo )

needless to say-- my article was never published .

Funny how beginners seeking advice seem to spur postings that become the place for advanced dancers to spar over technicalities.......I know I'm not that advanced yet.....LOL!

Terence. The tape I have on Salsa, and I haven't found one better, is by a Carlos Paz in the UK. He teaches and dances on beat one.
I think like all of the dances as the music changes so will the dance. If we take Foxtrot, nobody back in the early 50's would have ever dreamed about bending the knees to a 45 degree angle. Now look at the best dancers. As the music is played slower so the dances will alter.
I have a tape on the night Michael Barr retired from competitive dancing 1986, on the same program was a Professional International Competition. The way they were dancing was in my opinion pretty awfull. The Rumba for want of a better description was oozing . By todays standards it was not good. The Rumba today is being danced five bars slower and yet the moves are slicker, faster. How can that be. It is because they hold onto the beats 4 1 as long as is possible using the maximum amount of hip movement as is possible before hitting that beat two. Incidently the first time Latin was included at Blackpool was 1964. I dont know how anybody can dance on one in the Cha. Street Latin or otherwise. It would feel peculiar

How ?-- because Guajira is written with the syncopation within the bar-- 1,2, 3 and 4 ( just like triple Mambo )

I have quite a lot of Guajira in my DJ library .
The musical versions that you hear today, are written with a different musical structure using a " pick up " note to tie the bars together . Again, the music was "anglicised" thru jazz rhythms .

As much as Rumba is concerned, there was only Square when I began .
As i previously stated , todays rumba is patterend after Bolero ( which breaks on 3 ).

I also find it interesting, that many people believe, that if you are Hispanic, then you MUST know everything about latin dance. -- I have a flash for you-- 95% of my students in salsa in the States, were latinos. The average latino in the clubs, know little or nothing about their musical culture .

If you have never danced Bolero, then it becomes difficult to appreciate the sublety, when the indigenous music is applied to motion.

Todays actions, to my mind, are like Cabaret .

Until you ( or anyone ) has been introduced to ALL the dances within the latin genre, it is nigh impossible to see the relationship , to their modern counterparts .

To me , this is akin to putting a blind person in a car and saying " Ok now begin to drive ! "

And lastly , you do not have to " explain " intern. Latin to me-- have been teaching it for over forty yrs ( only when I have to ! )or the changes in F /Trot .
And yes, things do change -- primarily because of music-- that should NEVER, to my mind, detract from the dances original intent- change for changes sake, is not necessarily progress .

Terence. You must change with the times.That very straight legged Foxtrot that used to be taught. Would you like to see a return to that style of dancing.
As you said 95% of your students in the States were Latinos. The average latino in the clubs know little or nothing about their musical culture. The simple truth is they dont need to know to dance and couldn't care less. Take the Foxtrot as an example. Once it went in a straight line and then had a sort of bouncing side step to each side and then went on. Then there was a Lock Step which was later replaced replaced by the Feather Step.
In 1920 an Open Foxtrot Competition was held. The judges awarded the very hansom prize to a then unknown couple Miss Josephine Bradley and Mr.G.K. Anderson. Their steps were very simple: just a Walk, the Three Step. A Cross Behind and a side step done at an angle forty five degrees with a slow drag of the foot not unlike the Change of Direction.
You will no doubt notice that following the Walks was the Three Step wich was followed by the Cross up Behind which later became the Feather Step.
My teacher does a very good demonstration of how it used to be.
Having quoted from Victor Silvester. The point is to dance a good Foxtrot one doesn't need to know any of the above. Which applies to your Latinos also.

Terence2,

I am very impressed with your knowledge and experience with true latin dancing. I, too, have spent much time in latin clubs and continue to every week. There are rarely any ballroom dancers that EVER make it out to these clubs, and as such have no understanding of the authentic styles of salsa, cumbia, bachata, and other dances that our latin friends have brought to us from their countries. You definitely strike a major point about most competetive ballroom dancers never setting a foot inside a real latin club with Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Dominican Republicans all dancing their native dances. Most of the latinos think that the way Slavic or other professional "latin" dancers dance is silly and even a corruption of their beloved dances. For some reason I have such a hard time getting any of my ballroom friends to go out to the latin night clubs, I think because they feel uncomfortable. But I live at these clubs, and also take two lessons a week at a local ballroom studio. I am most serious about ballroom Mambo (yes, with the turnout and cuban motion on all beats!). I do try to improve my street salsa with some mambo techniques, but also try to keep some of the authenticity of the street salsa in the way I dance. I defintely do not want to look too "ballroomy" at the latin clubs. Yeah, when in true latin clubs, don't worry about the turnout or a picture perfect posture. Just be a great lead/follow!

There is an on going " slugfest " on another site ( dance forums ) about this very topic.

With it being a more b/room oriented site, there are many who truly believe that the representation of latin rhythms used in dance sport and Intern . Latin, reflects the genre in a positive light.
And it does-- to those who practice and display that form .

Again, I was trained in that style, and one has to have immersion into the cultural side of latin music to begin to really understand its roots and the context it has with the music .

I have, for some time now, become more involved in Cuban Son musically and dance wise . It is not as frenetic as the stereotype music that is being played in most clubs . It gives time for expression as the dance was intended .
In the defence of Ballroom style ( I still have to judge and teach it ) it has a place in the " market place " of ideas of interpretation ; as we know , cabaret is generally , to the publics eye, more entertaining, and possibly,more challenging in a different way ..

I also believe this is a double edged sword-- it happened in the b/room world many yrs ago.

When the comp. dancers started to attend socials, it started to drive out the social dancers .It has never recovered totally . Many schools in the u.k. banned them , but the damage was done .
I dont believe the 2 sides will ever compromise-- and thats OK-- each should recognise that the other has its purpose and never the twain shall meet .

I just happen to be a chameleon and do both !!

You quote me b/ Room history ( which I probably was dancing before you-- the thirties ) to make a point about Salsa !! ??

The more you challenge the topic-- the more you begin to show your limited knowledge .
To boot -- you seem to have missed the whole point .-- which is-- that the latin dances portrayed in todays world, are beginning to completely erode their original fundamental underpinnings ( they have already in many cases ).
And no-- i dont want to go back to 1940s latin ( i danced it then )

We are discussing SALSA-- and its current direction and its relationship to all that is latin .

maybe a better e.g. for anyone to understand, is the comparison between Bolero and Intern Rumba .
This points directly to the basis of the discussion at hand .

Again, like most people who have spent little or no time in " Latin " clubs , they all become experts in the genre .

At the least--- i can say that my evidence is empirical .

Terrence and Serendipidy,

I'm a beginner. My first dance class was a ballroom style group salsa course. At the time I wasn't aware of the difference between ballroom and street, or of the different styles within the Latin community. I went to a few Latino clubs, and am absolutely intrigued by the native style/styles! I now seek street style teachers...often hard for me to discern though. I really think, spending as much time as I can in clubs which draw native dancers is my best bet for learning...I'm just yearning for at least some of that sabor to rub off on me. My point in posting is that even though I can't enter this highly knowledgeable discussion, I'm finding it extremely interesting. I continue to take some ballroom dance lessons for other dances, but street Latin is my first love.