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Re: Steps terminology
Posted by terence2
1/17/2008  3:47:00 AM
And several variations of the concept.
Re: Steps terminology
Posted by SmoothGeezer
1/17/2008  9:24:00 AM
Any decent American style sliver foxtrot instructor should know what a feather step is. That pretty much demonstrates no knowledge at all of International foxtrot. Perhaps that is why he wants to avoid International (not for the poor, collisions on the floor excuse). This a very basic International step. The American name for the same, is a continuity step. There are other variations of the feather step which may, or may not, have American equivalents.

Yes many of the International steps may be worked into an American foxtrot routine intended for a show (the opposite is not true). You may have problems leading these at a social dance, but there should be no problem for a show routine, or if you dance with the same partner all the time.

Names for American steps are a mess in my opinion. Different instructors sometimes refer to the same step by different names. Many of them avoid stating the name of a step (or aren't even sure of the correct name) because of the proliferation of multiple names. I would like to see American style convert the names to be the same as International wherever possible and adopt some kind of standard that everyone is forced to use.
Re: Steps terminology
Posted by terence2
1/17/2008  10:03:00 AM
Now let me understand this -- you want the AMERICANS to change their names --( the ones who developed Foxtrot , Jive, Rumba, Cha, mambo, Tango at Social level ) etc ?-

- I,m english as the day is long-- but I lost that arrogance (I hope )-- many yrs back !
Re: Steps terminology
Posted by dheun
1/17/2008  11:02:00 AM
Thanks for all of the interesting input. We have been doing continuity and continuity styling steps, and I believe my instructor has been calling the feather step a "brush step." But I am not sure. Once I get back into the studio, I will quiz him on this. To answer Ellen, there will be about six of the more advanced couples on the floor for our segment of the show, which is a ballroom dancing portion of a show that features all styles of dancing. I guess one might call it a recital for the studio, but it is a pretty big production and in an excellent theater, so it is great fun.
I think my instructor was thinking that International style calls for longer, more gliding steps, and that we may get crowded or bunched up in some fashion.
But I agree with the posters who feel that a lot of names for steps are altered or changed, depending on who is teaching it and who is passing the name on to someone else in the future.
Re: Steps terminology
Posted by SmoothGeezer
1/17/2008  11:43:00 AM
Terrence

No arrogance intended. Since most the rest of the world uses the International names, it seems logical to use those also. The International names aren't particularly descriptive, and I could think of better names, but why be different, it only makes things more confusing. It would help the American student if he didn't have to remember several names for the same step. Even if we didn't use International names, I would be satisfied if we would decide on only ONE name per step.

Let's see, today we are doing crossover breaks, check from PP to CPP, New York, New Yorker, or step number 4 from the syllabus. Take your choice. Tomorrow we will be doing under arm turns, walk-around turns, or spot turns, not to be confused with forward spot turn, backwards spot turn, or the other spot turn.
Re: Steps terminology
Posted by Serendipidy
1/17/2008  2:26:00 PM
Terence Please. Who developed the Foxtrot. Surely you must have heard of Josephine Bradly
Other than that I think SmoothGeezer is dead right in what he has written. It would help the American student if he didn't have to remember several names for the same step. Very well put.
The reason for these odd names is because the instigators don't know the correct ones.
A good start would be to use the words BPM as it should be used and that is when you read 4/4 Tempo 28 bpm it is refering to bars and not beats.
Does it matter. It does if the teacher says we will let six bars go and pick it up on the seventh. I wouldn't want to count 24 beats. Or how about if we pick it up with the music at the end of the 16th bar. Thats 64 beats to let go by..
Re: Steps terminology
Posted by terence2
1/18/2008  12:16:00 AM
Why do you always runoff on a tangent ?-- and please --stop trying to educate me about music-- 70 plus yrs has taught me more than you can dream about .

This is about origins-- the F/Trot was invented by an American-- harry Fox get it ? -- FOX trot-- what the english did ,as they have done with EVERY dance, was to change concepts, and in the process, names .

The american style has been in vogue as long as the " Intern. " style--- maybe not as structured -- but there none the less .

This not about which is better--- its about reality. WE the english ( other than steps ) didnt invent a damn thing !! .
The variety that the American system uses, has appropriate names for its Standards -- as do we for ours -- its NOT our right to tell anyone which is correct or otherwise, unless its about OUR standards .

And , incidentally , I,m not defending the " teacher ? " who seems to have little idea about the differences .

Re: Steps terminology
Posted by dheun
1/18/2008  6:52:00 AM
Again, I appreciate the input from my original question and I don't mind the "tangents" that do occur on many of the questions and forums on this board. There is always something to be learned or debated when things get slightly off track from the original question. That's what message boards and talk boards are all about. Thankfully, this one has plenty of interesting information and excellent advice 90 percent of the time. My teacher is 76 years old and has been teaching for more than 50 years. I believe he came through the Fred Astaire studio ranks and disliked the up-selling and contracts he was forcing on people. When his daughter opened her own studio, he became the ballroom instructor. So he knows his stuff, but I am thinking now that he's either forgotten more than many of us would ever know, or he never really focused much on International style at the Astaire studios. I think there are more differences and name changes on steps and variations than even I was aware of, so from that standpoint I am glad I asked the question. It also appears to be one of those things that we'll have to live with, as it seems it would be hard to govern with an overall standard that both sides of the pond embraced.


Re: Steps terminology
Posted by terence2
1/18/2008  7:55:00 AM
We are of the same generation--- I was D.D. in NYC for F/A in the early sixties -- find out where he taught-- wouldnt it be strange if we had worked together ??
Re: Steps terminology
Posted by paul&dot
1/18/2008  8:06:00 AM
I hope I am not continuing on a tangent-
I think it was a good point about the BPM, bars, measures, etc.
I have noticed when two from different backgrounds strike up a conversation; unless the person(s) have been around, or had multiple exposures, misunderstanding on the simplest things occur because of language differences. Even with low level general terms like step, steps, moves and figures; or variations, routines, amalgamations, etc. To me a step and a move are singular. To me a variation is deviation from the norm and not routine. To someone else they know because they were taught the other way.
Another example- When writing variations or routines- to separate a one, two, or three measure move with a single comma does not make sense to me. It requires some interpretation on my part. Separating each beat(step) with a comma and a measure(bar) with a semicolon gives me clarity that allows a quick count of the beats, measures and figures.
Enduring tangentially---
I was told once at a Tango Clinic, and someone can affirm or denounce this . . . ‘many of the international names, figures, and such, were developed by the Germans but the British got credit because they were smart enough to document and gave them names.'
Maybe if someone (like Serendipity) were to take on the task of standardizing American and International, our great- grand children will think he/she developed both.

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