We do-- they are called " Societies "

"When I took my exams, I had to learn to lower far later than how I had been taught by all of my competitive coaches. Three separate examiners advised me that I should not begin my lowering until the body has completely reached the foot. However, I would never dance it that way in reality. Competitive dancers essentially relax the knee and ankle of the arriving leg, such that the lowering is complete once the body has reached the foot."

The problem of when to lower in step three stems from people failing to realize the changes in relative timing of actions that are a MANDATORY consequence of the greater leg division used today, than what was common when the books were being written and the examiners learning their own basics. The manual is not a collection of trivia, what it actually consists of is set of case studies illustrating unstated rules of cause and effect; apply those same rules to different situations and the resulting details MUST be different. Unfortunately, there's a tendency in the dance world to put a lot of stake in reciting memorized trivia, with a corresponding failure to seek actual understanding of the underlying rules of cause and effect.

It's a simple geometric fact that as the legs divide, unless counteracted by foot rise this will produce a lowering of the center - and the more leg division, the more lowering. When the dancers' feet pass to end step two, this will be the highest altitude of the figure, as the following leg division will begin to reduce the center altitude even though no 'lowering action' of the feet has yet been danced. So immediately, we have a lowering due to geometry that precedes the actual lowering action of the feet described in the book.

Next, with a large leg division as used today, the trajectory will already be firmly established as downwards by the time the foot is placed for step three, markedly more so than in the smaller steps of previous generations. To attempt to then arrest that natural descent by staying up on the foot would be the height of bad, jerky and disjointed dancing. Instead, the required action for the arriving foot is to facilitate the continuation of the path of descent established by the leg division.

Finally, we get to the issue of when the heel should touch down. In the old days, when they didn't divide their legs much into step 1, by the time the heel was down on step 3 the altitude was almost at it's minimum, so they put the heel touchdown and the passing of the feet together at the end of the step. Today however, we divide out legs a lot into step 1, and the geometry of that leg divisions means that we still have a lot of altitude left to loose once our foot is flat on the floor. Our heel touches down much closer to the midpoint of our more dramatic descent than to its conclusion, thus it will occur earlier in the sequence of the steps' actions than it would have in the days of comparatively minimal leg division.

The lower action on passing steps as shown on Jonathan's videos is not only correct, it is the ONLY ACCEPTABLE action for use with dancing of today's scale. However, it was not proper for the small, high and spindly dancing that was popular when the standards were first set.

this presents three choices:

1) The candidate can demonstrate their exams with the complete old style - small leg division and the lowering timing that matches it. This isn't a bad choice, as it's probably what is best for their basics students initially.

2) The candidate can do something that feels full and like dancing, but forcefully apply the foot timing of the smaller dancing onto it just to satisfy the examiner. This mismatched combination results in bad dancing which is artistically bankrupt and should be avoided.

3) The examiners must either update their standards, or make a study of the issues and provide official guidance of the ways in which the valid, comprehensive system of older / beginners technique differs from the valid, comprehensive system of the more dramatic modern competition dancing to which their candidates will be habituated. It is educationally dishonest to criticize a student for using the right technique for a different dance, and fail to point out that the real problem is that you want to see a different sort of dancing with it's characteristic techniques, not those techniques force fit onto a modern form of dance where they are outright wrong.

In Hiltons vidio Ballroom Lines both in the Waltz and foxtrot demonstration his knees are very close together at all times. I don't know if you would call that an old fashion style of dancing but I doubt that any competitive dancer would not die to be able to dance like that?

"In Hiltons vidio Ballroom Lines both in the Waltz and foxtrot demonstration his knees are very close together at all times. I don't know if you would call that an old fashion style of dancing but I doubt that any competitive dancer would not die to be able to dance like that?"

There are several issues here.

One important concept is that the knees will tend towards each other, even when they are apart due to leg division they will still want to be as close together as possible.

Another is the setting. A demonstration video is not going to be danced with the same dynamics as trying to win a competition.

Also there is the generational issue. While anyone would consider their dancing to exhibit sublime mastery, it represents a past which does not have the scale and dynamics currently in vogue.

And then the national style issue. The Hiltons are a quintissential English couple, and demonstrate the comparatively high, refined, elegant (and in some ways, almost restrained) style of that tradition. In marked contrast, the Italians who have been getting a lot of attention in the past decade tend to be lower, more earthy and dynamic. Much of the world is moving in that direction - lower depths to the swing, and greater leg division.

Finally, there is the issue of partial vs. complete mastery. Many of your active, rising competitors get the scale and dynamics of today's champions before they get the ultimate refined mastery (if indeed they ever get it). In some ways, this means that rising competitors are in the worst possible position to take a teaching exam, because to demonstrate mastery of traditional dancing at a smaller scope requires stepping away from so many things that either are, or feel, critical to winning their current competition events.

If you look at something like the Blackpool 98 video that is floating around the net, you'll see that while there is intensity, it's intensity of mastery - the actual dynamics are less than you'd see today, especially less than what you would see at a lower level event. And even then, look at Sinkinson's leg division in the feather - his style of dancing is lower and more dynamic than Hilton's.

Anonymous. Very true and well written. But I think most of what you have written will go over the top of most peoples heads. If we can go to your paragraph six where you touch on leg division and the Italian Style. I was at a lecture where it was pointed out that some Italians are nearly flat on step two of a Natural in the Waltz and also very wide. I think if we could measure the distance travelled we will find there is more of an upward than along in one style compared to the other which is flatter. Is the distance travelled any more or any less when it is put to the tape. Both though will be rising on three which a lot of us miss completelly. And both are technically correct according to the letter of the law.
I'll just throw this one into the hat. Marcus has I would say very straight legs. There are a lot of dancers whos knees will not touch , there ankles will make contact first. Having said that there are those whose knees will touch and the feet wont. We have to make the most of what we have got. This goes also to the top of the body where we have a different in height and length of arms which means there has to be a difference in our position in our poise with each other from one partnership to the next.
This business of in writting being told that the lady will stand there or here just is not so.

"There are a lot of dancers whos knees will not touch , there ankles will make contact first."

Most likely they have not yet learned the slight knee to inside edge of foot bias of proper ballroom technique. If someone dances on the outside edges of their feet, or as a separate issue with a remnant of childhood ballet training hip turnout, their ankles may be closer than their knees.

As for rising on three in the waltz, everyone I know does that. Some people may think they aren't, if they fail to remember that step three begins when the foot is only halfway closed. Do you really think there are people out there who do the second half of the closing with no further rise? That would be a very un-natural action.

I have just looked at a blackpool tape of the Hiltons competing in the waltz and their flight is as good as any danced today. I also looked at Pino & Alesssandrie dancing a basic Waltz their rise is the same as I was taught 30yrs ago with a count of 1&2&3&, they are up on three and lowering on the &.

"I have just looked at a blackpool tape of the Hiltons competing in the waltz and their flight is as good as any danced today. "

Flight and leg division are not the same thing.

Anonymous. Do I think there are people ot there who do the second half of the closing with no further rise. That was the question. The answere is yes I do. We see it all the time. Not from the top 100. If they did it wrong they wouldn't be in the top 100.
I was at a lecture given by Anthony Hurley. In it when he was asked about judging from a stage above the dance floor he said no. He likes to be at ground level to see if the correct rise and fall is being used. Which to me means that there are a lot out there who do the second half of a closing step with no further rise.
Actually the rise doesn't have a beginning. The rise on beat three is blended with beat two. I doubt if you will ever see a division between the two.
Ballet got a mention. A person who does not have the correct shaped legs would never get into a Ballet company. The would never pass the physical. With ballroom dancing I dont think you have thought that some people have bowed legs and some have knocked knees. You can use all the inside edges of a foot that you like. With a bow legged person those knees will not meet as the feet do come together...
The unhappy truth is . If the legs are not the correct shape and they were to train 7 hours a day 7 days a week they would become physicaly unfit. This also goes for Tennis. How many badly shaped legs are we seeing at the Australian Championship currently being played.

"Anonymous. Do I think there are people ot there who do the second half of the closing with no further rise. That was the question. The answere is yes I do. We see it all the time. Not from the top 100. If they did it wrong they wouldn't be in the top 100."

Ouch, I pity you even having to be in the same room as a body action that un-natural.

"I was at a lecture given by Anthony Hurley. In it when he was asked about judging from a stage above the dance floor he said no. He likes to be at ground level to see if the correct rise and fall is being used."

Hardly needed. Rise and fall is more than just change of altitude, it's the very life of the dance. If that is missing, you KNOW. And if someone's found another way to give the dance that life, well, maybe that is worthy of consideration too?

As a teacher you can look for literal traditional details. As a judge you should be looking for effect.

"Which to me means that there are a lot out there who do the second half of a closing step with no further rise."

Utter nonsense - it means no such thing. There are many other, far more likely, ways to mess up the rise and fall!

"Actually the rise doesn't have a beginning. The rise on beat three is blended with beat two. I doubt if you will ever see a division between the two."

There you go again making the classic error. The continuation of rise is NOT defined for BEAT three, but instead for STEP THREE, which is substantially not the same thing!

"A person who does not have the correct shaped legs would never get into a Ballet company. The would never pass the physical. With ballroom dancing I dont think you have thought that some people have bowed legs and some have knocked knees."

It's not an issue of physiology, it's an issue of habits. If you still carry a reminder of hip-socket turnout from previous ballet training, you cannot dance ballroom properly. Proper ballroom technique has your stance biased slightly in the knock-kneed direction.

"You can use all the inside edges of a foot that you like. With a bow legged person those knees will not meet as the feet do come together..."

You cannot maintain "bow legs" while placing each knee over the inside of the corresponding foot for proper ballroom technique. This produces knock-knees, which are the opposite of bow legs.

"The unhappy truth is . If the legs are not the correct shape and they were to train 7 hours a day 7 days a week they would become physicaly unfit."

Oh please, we aren't talking about mishapen bones, we are talking about lifelong habits of improper set of the joints. Yes, it will take time to correct, but in anyone not medically disabled, it can be corrected by training.

"This also goes for Tennis. How many badly shaped legs are we seeing at the Australian Championship currently being played."

Very few, because your "badly shaped" legs are in fact legs utilized with poor technique, and poor technique is recognized as an inefficiency and eliminated by championship quality training.