Not this topic again!

There IS difference between 2/4 & 4/4: and it is the way the beats are stressed.

In 4/4 the primary stress is on beat one, with a secondary (weaker) stress on beat three. However, with 2/4 there is stress on beat one and none on two.

So they go:

4/4 STRONGEST weak STRONG weak (1 bar/measure)
2/4 STRONG weak STRONG weak (2 bars/measures)

Same duration: but different.

The dance technique books are confused too: they suggest that 2/4 tango music is stressed on both beats. Oh? If they are both stressed, then they are the same. The stress can only be relative to the other beat.

As a musician, who happens to dance, I find the confusion rather odd. How could the two patterns be considered interchangeable? They're just not.

I can't see what difference it would make whether you step on the first beat or the third beat of 4/4 music. Until the technique is updated, tango is danced in 2/4. There is no four-beat phrasing. But you can dance to the wrong music if you want to - quickstep, perhaps?

"4/4 STRONGEST weak STRONG weak (1 bar/measure)

2/4 STRONG weak STRONG weak (2 bars/measures)"

This is not fully accurate.

There is stress on the first quick of each slow, and the stress on the odd slows is greater than that on the even slows. This is true REGARDLESS OF THE TIME SIGNATURE. Even if you use 2/4 time and one slow per measure (which is not the usual meaning of 2/4 for tango), that does not mean that pairs of measures, and thus pairs of slows, would have equal stress - the difference will still be created as a result of standard rules of musical interpretation.

I would also point out that there are really 3 potential time signatures for tango:

1) 4/4, quarter note is a quick

2) 2/4, quarter note is a slow (this is the traditional book timing). There are still two slows per measure, and the pattern of relative stress is obvious in the notation.

3) 2/4, quarter note is a quick such that two slows requires two measures. This is common for other styles of music, but does not hold with the dance-teacher tango usage above. At any rate, music written such that the basic unit is two measures has a customary pattern of stronger/weaker stress on the two measures of each pair - JUST LIKE THAT WHICH OCCURS WITHIN A 4/4 MEASURE.

The ultimate issue is that the time signature is chosen for notational convenience alone. The character of the performance AS YOU HEAR IT depends not on the ink on the page, but on the application of the musician's artistic expertise in deciding how to inflect their performance. The musical literature is full of both ingrained habits of translation (it's written this way but everyone knows to play it that way), and areas open decision (it's written this way, some conductors want it done like this, others want it done like that).

"I can't see what difference it would make whether you step on the first beat or the third beat of 4/4 music."

As you posted yourself, the first beat (first slow) gets the strongest inflection, while the 3rd beat (second slow) gets a strong one, but not as strong as the first. Any tango figure can technically use either of these, but the character of the figure will change depending on what you place on the greater or lesser stress - meaning that in many cases you (and the judges) will like the figure a lot more one way than the other way.

"The dance technique books are confused too: they suggest that 2/4 tango music is stressed on both beats. Oh?"

"Until the technique is updated, tango is danced in 2/4. There is no four-beat phrasing."

The technique book's idea of 2/4 is the version with quarter notes (beats) equalling slows rather than quicks. So while there's no primary phrasing over four "beats" in that model, there is still the same strongest/weak/strong/weak phrasing over four "quicks" as can be found in any of the other models.

This is what gets us back to Serendipity's idea of treating everything as 4/4 being useful. Four quicks in tango is four quicks in tango and when performed by competent musicians will always have the same pattern of stresses if you listen carefully enough. It doesn't really matter if that's one bar or two or if beats are quicks or slows - four quicks are four quicks, and that is the basic aligned unit. Many would consider the building block of tango figures to be the QQS rhythm fitted to the pattern of stresses over a phrasing-aligned grouping of 4 quicks in the music.

I just don't know where to begin: I've never read such rubbish!

The technique has two beats (both slow) in one bar/measure. In 2/4, that means two crochets (quarter notes) in each bar. Slow, Slow.

That's it.

The rest, you've just made up. There is no 4-beat phrasing in Tango. There just isn't.

"The technique has two beats (both slow) in one bar/measure. In 2/4, that means two crochets (quarter notes) in each bar. Slow, Slow."

Yes, that's exactly what I just said in the post you so rudely objected to: "2/4, quarter note is a slow (this is the traditional book timing). There are still two slows per measure"

In this model, both beats (both slows) are stressed on their first quick - though someone with more musical knowledge would tell you that they are not stressed equally. Instead, the first slow is stronger and the second one receives a somewhat lesser stress, such that the pattern over four quicks is still the same strongest/weak/strong/weak as in any other model of tango.

"The rest, you've just made up. There is no 4-beat phrasing in Tango. There just isn't."

You're not reading carefully to see the actual words used. I said there was phrasing over four QUICKS. In some models of notation such as 4/4 that is four beats, in others such as the book's version of 2/4 it is only two beats - but the important thing is that IT'S STILL A PHRASING OF FOUR QUICKS, IN ANY SYSTEM.

Tango music is in 2/4.

If you subdivide the only two quarter note beats into four eighth notes (two slows into four quicks), you DON'T end up with the same stress pattern as 4/4. The stress pattern of 2/4 and 4/4 are not interchangeable, and apart from anything else, the technique recognises 2/4 as authentic to tango and nothing else. You might as well say that the compound beat pattern of 6/8 (Viennese Waltz) is the same as 3/4, but quicker.

There is no four-beat phrasing in tango. Full stop. You might as well say that quickstep can be phrased in eights (all quicks) - it can't; or that Waltz works in sixes - it doesn't.

You're just making it up.

"Tango music is in 2/4."

Not necessarily true!

"If you subdivide the only two quarter note beats into four eighth notes (two slows into four quicks), you DON'T end up with the same stress pattern as 4/4."

Yes, in fact you do end up with the same pattern, because although both quarter notes (both slows) are stressed, they are not stressed equally. The musical intelligence of the performers will insure the usual pattern of strongest/weak/strong/weak remains.

As you yourself pointed out, the book's comment that both beats are stressed doesn't seem to make sense - that is, until it you notice that it doesn't say they are equally stressed, because in fact they do not receiver equal stress.

"The stress pattern of 2/4 and 4/4 are not interchangeable"

There is no such ting as the stress pattern of a time signature. There is only the stress pattern of a style of music. Some time signatures make certain patterns visually logical, but the time signature does not govern the stress - the musicality of the musicians does.

"the technique recognises 2/4 as authentic to tango and nothing else."

Most people today count tango in 4/4, and this is every bit as proper as the method in the technique book. Music is not numbers - numbers can be used to describe music, but in the end the music is music and the numbers are just a convenient model for notation or description.

"You might as well say that the compound beat pattern of 6/8 (Viennese Waltz) is the same as 3/4, but quicker."

In fact, you can notate the same music in many different ways. Custom and habit and convenience may favor one or the other, and the choice may hint at interpretation, but it DOES NOT MANDATE IT.

And incidentally, the time signature for VW suggested in the technique book is 3/4, not 6/8. This is also the most common choice by composers, with 3/8 being the second most popular choice. 6/8 is not common, though from a dancers perspective it has a degree of logic.

"There is no four-beat phrasing in tango. Full stop."

You are still not reading the ACTUAL WORDS that were WRITTEN.

What was said what that there was four QUICK phrasing. And there is.

In the book notation, four quicks are two beats. To one of the many teachers who counts in 4/4 four quicks are four beats - but what is important is that THE PHRASING IS ALWAYS OVER FOUR QUICKS.

"You might as well say that quickstep can be phrased in eights (all quicks) - it can't; or that Waltz works in sixes - it doesn't."

Book timing for quickstep is in terms of quicks as quarter notes. Eights would be ands, which is to say a bit too fast to habitually count. In actually fact, some people will think quickstep in terms of half notes, putting it in cut time (2/2). The band is almost certain doing so at that tempo.

And for waltz, it is indeed common and useful to count 1-6 over pairs of measures as this brings out the two-bar phrasing of waltz music.

You have to stop confusing numerical systems with music - MUSIC IS NOT NUMBERS.

Anonymous.Music is eight bar phrased not for bar phrased. It doesnt matter whether it is Waltz. Foxtrot. Cha. Samba Jive you name it.They are all eight bar phrased. Some singers, not singing for a strict tempo dance disc .,sometimes alter the phrasing. Neil Diamond for instance Song Sung Blue. Billy Joel, If he had only eight bar phrased Piano Man we could dance the V. Waltz to it. I think you might have to eventually change your mind about music not being about numbers. How many beats are there in a bar of music. How many beats are there in one minute if the music is played at 28 BPM. In an average disk how many eight bar phrases are there . Eight. And 8 x 8 = 64 what. It's all about numbers. Even our steps are numbered.Think of this. How many beats are there in one Slow. How do you know that. Its because you can count them. When the music is playing and your next step is a slow, or in the case of a Waltz one beat. You give it one or two beats depending on which dance it is ,don't you. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't Argentine Tango music eight bar phrased also. Paso Doble isn't.
Terence . How about Salsa.

Yes, salsa mambo etc .

The catch here is this, they frequently include a " 4 bar " clave reversal ( Son to Rumba ) .But after that-- back to the 2 bar couplet .

have been trying to convince the current Salsa world the same premise ( they count EVERY thing in numbers )

A combo. of both is the ideal method, showing distribution of time (s,and, quicks ) and how that relates to the times we do or do not change weight,also where and when -- all should play a part in instruction.

"Anonymous.Music is eight bar phrased not for bar phrased"

Serendipity, please quote the message where it was proposed that music was four bar phrased.

You won't find it, because it doesn't exist.

Why do you keep inventing things that haven't been said only in order to argue against them?