"I agree that there must be a delay in getting the turn through to the feet on 1 as it takes time to develop that CBM."

It's not that the CBM takes time to develop, it's that CBM does not imply foot turn, especially in the forwards case. CBM is body rotation alone, wheras foot turn is change of alignment. There is often one or two steps delay between the CBM that commences a turn and the change of foot alignment that realizes it. In other cases, CBM is used but there never is a change of foot alignment.

"But how can you stop the supporting foot rotating under the forces generated through the use of CBM (ie if you twist your waist anticlockwise"

CBM is not really accomplished by twisting in place, though some twist of the body is the proper result in a number of cases. Instead, it is executed by a drive that is not directly through the body's center of mass, but instead to one side or the other. That applies a torque to the body, resulting in rotation of the body. The standing foot does not rotate much both because the drive is relatively aligned with the standing foot, and because the standing foot has sufficient friction against the floor to be held in place without rotation.


"isnt there a tendency for the lower half ie the legs and feet to follow through in order to relieve the strain"

Such neutralization would occur only at the point in the figure where actual turn (change of foot alignment) is specified. In other cases the twisted cross-body position will be carried through several steps without turn - in those cases, that twisted body position is given the formal name CBMP.

"But I dont seem to be aware of keeping tension in my waist for that long."

There's only a little bit of twist at the waist, most of it occurs in the hip sockets - the pelvis is rotated relative to the legs.

"So the key question is where does the torque come from"

Torque is force applied some non-zero distance from the center of rotation. If your drive is aimed slightly to one side of your center of mass, your body experiences torque. If your foot is very slightly turned as you begin to arrive on step 2 in waltz, the uplift from the floor you experience through that foot will be slightly offset from the ball of foot, and a further rotation of that foot will occur.

hi anymouse.

i haven't had time to read your replies in detail. will do later !

one question that immediately comes to mind. what is the difference between a step without CBM and one with CBM. If you just need to make the drive just offsett from the centre of mass, presumably all you need to do is to angle the knee very slightly outwards.

on a more general level, what led you to think as seriously as you obviously have about human movement mechanics in dance. and have you found it useful in your teaching ? do you feel there is much interest in it within the standard/latin community ?

"one question that immediately comes to mind. what is the difference between a step without CBM and one with CBM."

body rotation or the lack of it

"If you just need to make the drive just offsett from the centre of mass, presumably all you need to do is to angle the knee very slightly outwards."

I'm not sure I'd say that the knee is offset to the outside, but you are right that the mechanism will not need to be large or visually obvious.

"on a more general level, what led you to think as seriously as you obviously have about human movement mechanics in dance."

It's basically a combination of a few starting points that I got from other people, and realizing that what the really insightful dance teachers and dancing physicists are saying actually fits together extremely well. Some examples:

- Someone did comparison calculations for potential energy at the top of rise vs. kinetic energy at the fastest and lowest point, and found they were moderately comparable

- Dance teacher who pointed out that most figures have two steps still moving in the original direction before the turn, and then one step after. I later realized that this puts the turn at the point where the energy is at its most in non-directional (potential) form and at its least in kinetic form.

- Dance teacher who introduced the concept of rounding out the lowering even from foot closure, which makes even that type of lowering a form of downswing, rather than the lower over the foot and only then move taught to beginners.

- Dance teacher who insisted that the hip and shoulder advance with and over the standing knee when commencing a forward action, and not remain stationary over the standing foot.

Anonymous. This does bring up an interesting point. On a turn, take the first three of a Natural. Many of us try to think of turning with the feet. But try this. Stand as if one step has been taken. With the arms in the correct position. in relation with the body they will not move. Forget about the feet and simply rotate your left side around just as if we were inside a barrel with our elbows touching and not leaving the sides. Don't worry about the RF . Get the side around and don't cut the turn. This is a Natural movement. Just like an areoplane. The wing tips travell the furthest.

Anonymous. You are still under the impression the two people dancing together both swing on the same step. Your own senses should tell you that on a turn if the person on the inside were to swing with the person on the outside. They , the person on the inside would arrive too early and arrive before their partner.. Why do you think that on every step where the person is on the inside it is written in with the footwork NFR ( no foot rise ). If this is done incorrectly especially in the V. Waltz it can even be dangerous. If you look at that dance carefully you will see what appears to be a slight pause by the person on the inside as the outside person swings past.

"Anonymous. You are still under the impression the two people dancing together both swing on the same step."

Because in fact they do.

Your mistake is in not realizing that the smaller action on the inside of the turn is still a swing.

"the person on the inside would arrive too early and arrive before their partner."

I've already pointed out to you numerous times that the person on the inside of the turn must time their swing to match the needs of the person on the outside. You keep ignoring this point, and so keeping coming to a mistaken conclusion.

"Why do you think that on every step where the person is on the inside it is written in with the footwork NFR ( no foot rise )."

No foot rise does not mean no swing.

"you will see what appears to be a slight pause by the person on the inside as the outside person swings past."

Appears perhaps to the untrained eye, but the skilled dancer knows that it is not a pause, but merely a much slower swinging movement.

Anonymos. Find a teacher who has had international experience and ask them. I think you will find they will suggest that the person on the inside holds their position untill the person on the outside swings past. They then follow them up onto the next step. In other words like in the V, Waltz. You go. I go. You Swing. Then on my forward step I Swing.
Copied from the book. Natural V. Waltz.
1. RF forward. Facing D.C.
2. LF side (long step ) Backing Centre
3. RF closes to LF. Backing D.C.
4. LF back and slightly to the side.
Backing LOD
5. RF to side (small step) Pointing diag to centre
6. LF closes to RF..Facing D.C.
The lady is the natural opposite
And you are telling me that there
is swing on step 5.
On steps 1 make sure you do understand why we face D. C. to start and also to finish on step 6.

"Anonymos. Find a teacher who has had international experience and ask them. I think you will find they will suggest that the person on the inside holds their position untill the person on the outside swings past."

No, they will not suggest that as an ultimate fact to serious students, because it is completely unworkable for the inside person to stay in position if the outside one is going to achieve championship-scale swing, the inside one must also swing, albeit in a smaller movement.

Advice to stay in place would only be given to serious students as a corrective overstatement to someone who is moving too far on the inside - if they actually did manage stay in place, the teacher would tell them not to take it literally, but merely to make an appropriately small movement fitting to the needs of their partner.

You have an amazingly short memory - you lost this very same argument just last week, when you had been insisting that Melissa remained in position over her standing foot while placing step two, right up until it was pointed out to you the specific frame in the video that showed her body had in fact moved some distance away from the foot she was standing on. Confronted with the evidence you dropped the issue, but now you raise it again somehow hoping all is forgotton - well, it's not, except perhaps by you.

A skilled dancer simply does not stop on the inside of an ordinary turn - they slow, but they do not stop. Stopping, if ever advised, is merely a stopgap measure for beginners who have not yet learned to move slowly enough when on the inside of turn. Also their partner will probably not be able to make a very big swing on the outside yet. But with today's movement, it is imperative that the person on the inside keeps moving as well, for if they did not they would be a dead anchor severely limiting how far their partner could move. Maybe you are personally content to dance that way, but the rest of us know better.

"Copied from the book. Natural V. Waltz."

You won't find any mention of swing for either partner there, and certainly no mention of pausing.

"And you are telling me that there
is swing on step 5."

Yes, there most certainly is, but it takes some skill to know how to apply it.

Anonymous. If you do as the instructions say
On step 4 you are backing LOD.
Step 5 point RF DC
Step 6 Close Still facing DC
With that alignment and footwork you couldn't possibly Swing Why would it be necessary especially with no foot rise allowed.

"Anonymous. If you do as the instructions say
On step 4 you are backing LOD.
Step 5 point RF DC
Step 6 Close Still facing DC
With that alignment and footwork you couldn't possibly Swing Why would it be necessary especially with no foot rise allowed."

Think about it this way: if you do not move on the inside of the turn, then you must be rotating in place. If you rotate in place, then the part of your body on one side of the axis of rotation advanced while the part of your body on the other side must move against the nominal direction of travel. Such retrograde movement is strictly prohibited, even when attempting smaller beginner sized movements. The result is that everyone must move at least enough that the rotation doesn't have either side of their torso moving against the direction of travel.

At an advanced level, it's necessary to move even more on the inside of the turn, because the partner on the outside is going to want to move not just enough to pass us, but enough to pass us AND move both halves of the couple down the floor. If we did not move, we would constrain them to move no more than past us, which would be severely limiting compared to the size of movements routinely achieved by good dancers.

To refute your other argument, swing does not require foot rise. There is for example swing on the inside of heel turns - even for the man, who has neither foot rise nor body rise when he is on the inside of a heel turn. You could for example look at that Hilton basic waltz video, where you will see Karen swing the inside of a natural on the first measure, and then Marcus swing the inside of an impetus on the second. You personally might not swing in those circumstances, but a dancer of their level certainly does!