They are both right and they are both wrong.

Ultimately you need to decide which if either has students who seem to be able and comfortable dancing with the qualities that you want to develop yourself. And then you need to be specific about identifying which teacher(s) are responsible for that - it's not enough to be in the same studio as the dancing you want to do, you actually need the specific teacher who creates it. Don't buy the marketing gimmicks that they are all good enough, don't pay far in advance, and don't sign anything that's not specific about who will be teaching you.

Wouldn't it be a bit more helpful to foxytrotter for you to specify what is "right and wrong" with each set of directions?



jj

"Wouldn't it be a bit more helpful to foxytrotter for you to specify what is "right and wrong" with each set of directions?"

No, because a second-hand retelling in words is too inexact an approach to something as complicated as frame, poise, and posture.

Without in-person exposure to an external reference, the best strategy at this point is to look at the students of the various teachers - whose students are dancing in a way that is functional and comfortable, vs. whose look painful?

Let me start by saying I'm not a pro... (yet!) So I welcome any corrections to what I may say.
I'm sure there will be some other posters who will give you more detailed instructions. But there is some info in the Learning Center link (on this site) under "learn the basics" about posture and dance frame, that may help.

Also, you should NEVER lean back. Studio B is correct in saying that it is an illusion.

A description that helped me was that it's almost like you're doing a rib cage isolation to the left with a slight twist to get your left boob to the man's side.

Your arm isn't resting on the man's arm, or else he'd have a heck of a workout in that arm! But that doesn't mean that you're arm can't be touching his. Keep the wrist straight, if it is bent it breaks the line.

Your right arm should not go behind you. Not sure the best way to explain this in writing.

Yes, your knees should be slightly bent. But as to where the weight is at any given time depends on what you're doing. But I believe weight should always be over both, or one or the other foot. Otherwise your body would be leaning forward or backward (not good).

Then there is the issue of the head and neck. But that again needs a good teacher or coach to demonstrate.

From what I've read, I disagree most with Studio A - I'd stick with Studio B.

Firstly.. it is nigh impossible to advise you, or anyone, on " stance " without seeing their physical structure...there are certain guidelines
that exist, but... there are " different " schools for partnership holds... this is determined by "style " ( English, Italian etc ).

Again, its a very complex issue, and without seeing WHAT you are doing, the info. you giving may be a mis interpretation .

The one thing I will stress.. dont " bend " the knees.. flex is a more apt description...and that should occur as you commence your " stride " in the " swing " dances..
Also.. remember this.. " dance " is not a sprint.. its a marathon..

in the US: as a group, they are not the most articulate folks on the planet.

I and I imagine many other students have struggled mightily with the inability of some instructors to describe anything, even simple concepts, in a clear and straightforward manner.

You cannot imagine how many times I've had to ask "What is your antecedent for 'that'?"

One of characteristics of good teachers is an ability to describe the elements of dance with precision and clarity.

To help yourself in this decision, make up a short list of questions about basic dance techniques (footwork, shaping, timing, etc.) and pose the questions to your teacher at each studio (as you did with the example above). Pick the studio whose teacher gives you responses which you can more easily understand.

If you are not yet comfortable with your own judgment, you can post more answers here and we'll be happy to share our opinions with you.

In this thread so far, intabfab and Terence have given you good responses. Could you possibly post a link to a photo or video of yourself (while dancing, of course; we don't need to see your wedding pictures )?

Good luck.



jj

"One of characteristics of good teachers is an ability to describe the elements of dance with precision and clarity."

This is true, and I have benefited in the past from working with such teachers when I was finally able to find them.

However, equally true is that one of the primary reasons why it can be hard to get specific, accurate answers to questions is that a student may be asking the wrong questions.

There are many aspects of dance where it is possible to describe with literal accuracy what is done, but where that information is not useful in approaching the problem, and so the precise answers to the unproductive questions are not common knowledge (though factually false answers may be readily available). Timing in foxtrot is a great example - you don't accomplish it by knowing the fraction of a beat that each step gets, but by learning by feel the dynamics of how the three steps of a feather interact.

So it's useful to seek out a teacher who can give you solid answers to information that is considered important - like footwork and alignments as found on teacher exams. But it's also important to pay attention to the plan of attack that a teacher has for shaping the student's eventual understanding. In some cases that will be factual intellectual knowledge (this step is heel toe, aligned diagonal to center), in other cases it will be more abstract (the swing of this figure feels like this).

But without an external expert for reference, the most practical way to tell which teacher's plan of attack may lead somewhere, and which is just touchy-feely-nonsense or technobabble trivia - is probably to look at which has students whose dancing seems to work well.

So for the question of frame there is no black and white answer. It is moderately relative to the dancers. Is that correct?

Oh and I will do what I can about the picture/video. I never thought of that. Thank you very much!

Well, there is a correct way to hold frame. But the areas in which a dancer is having difficulty varies greatly. No problem is exactly the same and therefore no solution is exactly the same.

However, there were some clearly and easily incorrect directions given (which were addressed in responses).

As always take the advice you get here with a grain of salt. If anything, use it as a way to ask more specific or better questions to your instructor - as anymouse said, the better the question the better the answer.

(Although, why he/she neglected to provide any specific advice to help a new dancer achieve this, I'm not quite sure. He/she seems to often be quite cryptic and vague.)

I think what a lot of us are saying is that frame isn't something that is easy to describe on paper. Its a lot like trying to teach someone to kiss over the internet. There just aren't words that are really going to describe to you how to do it correctly. It is best demonstrated and there are subtleties (which is how you got the idea that it is relative to the dancers) that you must be aware of as you dance with different partners, but those should be very minor.

Your body is not going to be able to pick up and maintain frame 100% of the time to begin with, it is a skill like most others that are learned in dance.

Your body needs time to learn, to adjust and to build up the necessary muscle tone. In time you are going to find a good professional will continually tweak your frame, adding in and demanding more elements that you could not have performed in the beginning.

You should also know that sometimes the things you see are actually illusions created by the way dancers move and hold their bodies. Trying to force your body to actually do these things 'for real' is going to lead to injury.

I also want to suggest and it is just a suggestion that you only dance with one pro. Use the rest of your pent up dancing energy in group lessons where you are exposed to other dancers who are learning the ropes like you. Maybe if you are lucky pick up a practice partner there. It will mean you have a chance at true competitions since that is your ultimate aim.