"And if the term was acceptable, then why bother to change it at all, no matter WHERE its usage was applied !( of which i am fully aware )"

Your argument is nonsensical. The term was not changed for the subject in question, because it was never used for the subject in question to begin with!

The use of the word shoulder in describing where to place the foot in CBMP is entirely applicable, for reasons having nothing to do with the now-deprecated historic usage for an earlier version of what we now call the side-leading position.

The specific reason people say under the shoulder for CBMP is because it is both factually descriptive and tends to obtain the desired result.

Please note that people are not saying rotate your shoulder over your foot, they are saying place your foot under your shoulder. It will be immediately obvious that one tends to produce contortion while the other does not.

A side-leading step is the opposite of a step with CBM, not of one taken in CBMP (although the CBMP with CBM can occur on the same step, which takes some explaining to beginners). CBMP gives the "appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body".

We are very careful indeed with shoulder movements, aren't we? It sometimes helps beginners to feel a backwards CBM as coming from the hips, rather than from the shoulder (Moore), but that terminology dates from a time when Moore was still writing about "shoulder-leading", and its been a long time since anyone else did. Otherwise, by and large, we don't move 'em.

"A side-leading step is the opposite of a step with CBM, not of one taken in CBMP"

Wrong.

In both CBMP and side leading situations, the orientation of the body relative to the feet is pre-established. If you take a series of diagonal steps with unchanging foot alignment and body orientation, they will be in side lead, CBMP, side lead, CBMP, etc - CBMP and side lead are essentially the same condition, but the appropriate name depends if the if the moving foot is on the side where it will extend the body alignment or if it is on the side where it will step across the body alignment.

Contrastingly, in CBM actions, the orientation is established by body rotation during the step.

A feather is a great example of the typical sequence of events.

1) Use CBM to establish an orientation of the body relative to the feet.

2) This orientation means the body orientation is on the same side as the moving foot, so we say we have a side leading.

3) We are now moving the opposite foot across that same body orientation, so we now call it CBMP.

"We are very careful indeed with shoulder movements, aren't we? It sometimes helps beginners to feel a backwards CBM as coming from the hips, rather than from the shoulder (Moore), but that terminology dates from a time when Moore was still writing about "shoulder-leading", and its been a long time since anyone else did. Otherwise, by and large, we don't move 'em."

I would say shoulder rotation is substantial and obvious in natural CBM, but needs to be prevented during the early stages of reverse CBM. Some just simplify to saying that reverse CBM happens late, but that's not really true - what is true is that its effect in the upper body is later and smaller.

CBMP is a foot position (ie one foot in relation to the other foot), and has nothing, directly, to do with the alignment of the body in the swing dances. Tango has its own technique, where your theory has better application, but it seems that your ideas need some further development to be coherent.

"CBMP is a foot position (ie one foot in relation to the other foot), and has nothing, directly, to do with the alignment of the body in the swing dances. "

CBMP is defined as a foot position, and it's not possible to accomplish CBMP by body alignment alone without the corresponding foot position, however to be in CBMP and to also be comfortable pretty much requires that the body have an opposite side lead in relation to the feet. This is the basically the same body position that would be called a (same) side lead if we were standing on the other foot - not only would it be called that, it likely was or will be on the preceding or following step.

You get between side lead and CBMP simply by taking another step with no change in foot or body alignment or direction of travel. You establish either one by rotating the body - and rotation of the body in the direction most commonly used to create these is called CBM.

CBMP and side lead are both states that the dancer can be in, while CBM is a technique used to change state. Side lead and CBM cannot be analogous opposites any more than a noun can be the analogous opposite of a verb - which is to say it can't.

Being a foot position, is in't possible to acvhieve it AT ALL without the corresponding foot position.



Unfortunately for you, they are opposites of each other. Tip: When in a hole, stop digging.

"CBMP is defined as a foot position, and it's not possible to accomplish CBMP by body alignment alone without the corresponding foot position,

Being a foot position, is in't possible to acvhieve it AT ALL without the corresponding foot position."

It was not suggested that it was possible. However, in practice CBMP is not simply a foot position - there's also a strong implication of a compatible body position. To go along with that foot position.

Technically side leading is a body position, but there's a strong implication of a compatible foot position.

"Side lead and CBM cannot be analogous opposites any more than a noun can be the analogous opposite of a verb - which is to say it can't.

Unfortunately for you, they are opposites of each other. Tip: When in a hole, stop digging"

Would suggest you do a bit of research and then follow your own advice, as you are plainly wrong.

An action and a position cannot be analogous opposites - it is a violation of both logic and language.

It is true that CBM and side lead are in opposite directions, but the analagous opposite of side lead is CBMP - a position - not CBM which is an action.

Given that CBMP gives "the appearance of CBM having been used, but without turning the body", you need to find an alternate explanation for what you observe. CBMP is just a foot position.



No, side-leading is "opposite to CBM and is when the same side of the body moves with the stepping foot at the time of taking the step ..." Therefore, of course, as CBM is "a body action", so is side-leading.

You might find it more useful to consider that CBM is always occurs on one step only, whereas the body position achieved by a side-leading step can be effectively maintained (eg steps 2 & 3 of a Feather step), and whether the established Technique has a vocabulary sufficient to describe what is happening and WHY.



I don't think so: but equally, I don't think that continuing this bickering is getting anyone anywhere either. I'll call it a day, on this one, I think.

"CBMP is just a foot position."

By definition, yes, but by practical necessity it requires a compatible body position for comfort.

"No, side-leading is "opposite to CBM and is when the same side of the body moves with the stepping foot at the time of taking the step ..." Therefore, of course, as CBM is "a body action", so is side-leading."

No, you are misunderstanding what you are reading. It's true that side leading is in the opposite DIRECTION form CBM, but what you have dug up is the context of side leading, not literally a definition - it cannot be a definition for the simple reason that side leading is a position, not an action.

Ultimately, your confusion stems from failing to realize that side leading generally occurs not as a result of any action taken during the subject step, but instead as a result of body rotation (most often CBM) during a preceding step. That is a fact it shares with its effectively opposite analogous position, called CBMP.

"You might find it more useful to consider that CBM is always occurs on one step only"

CBM is an action, that changes which side of the body is in advance.

"whereas the body position achieved by a side-leading step"

That's your mistake - side leading is the resulting position, but CBM (or in less common cases rotation in the anti-CBM direction) is the action that causes it.

"can be effectively maintained (eg steps 2 & 3 of a Feather step)"

That's the exact example I already introduced, because it shows why you are wrong in calling side leading an action: the side in advance position achieved by the CBM on 1 is maintained during two where it is called side leading, and most of 3 where it is called CBMP. Step 1 is the action, steps 2 and 3 maintain the resulting position.

Nice try: except that what I have quoted (directly) IS the definition. Tough!



You mean to say that you dance a Feather like that? I do hope that you don't teach: please say that you don't teach...

But that's me done for this thread - really, this time.