Hi to all those who responded.

I've been sick for few days, so I'll try to catch up now:

terence2, thank you for the reference to dance forums. After seeing your note, I did a search for "dance forums review" but only got one hit: it was dedicated to salsa dancing. I suspect there might be more. Can you provide a link?

sifuguy, the product I was referring to is apparently not available on Amazon.com, so there aren't any reviews there....

eeyore, no, the product I wrote about was not "Ballroommix." I am unfamiliar with that product entirely - and perhaps that is a good thing.

anymouse, you have spoken some truth, and certainly, I agree that the material on a bronze DVD *SHOULD* be perfectly leadable. However, I believe you missed a couple of key points in my original post.

First, each lesson - there are some 15 on the DVD - STARTS with the dancers totally separate: i.e., not touching in any manner, and with a respectable amount of air between them. Unless there is a convention, or pre-existing understanding between the two dancers, how is the follower suppose to know if he/she is to stand still, move left, right, back, forward, up or down? Unless the leader is one of those "men who stare at goats," I don't see any possible way for a "lead" to happen - no matter how much or how well the leader visualizes interacting with his/her partner.

At least to my experience, there are also multiple ways of proceeding from most positions in dance. Indeed, many of the figures on this DVD start from positions which to my eyes seem identical.

In fact, as a quick experiment, I just re-watched the first three lessons. Each started in an identical position: the instructors even used the same name to describe it. In the first two, the lady did a spin in towards her partner. In the third, she took a step straight back. In all three cases, the leader's first move was quite different. That fact is of no help to the lady -- because she starts with her back to the man! Huh? How is that suppose to work? How is either party suppose to visualize and prepare for what will happen? Especially since an error could mean a real mess (and in more ways than one) on the floor?

Also, this is a bronze level video: the title says it's actually "Beginning-Intermediate," as well as for "all styles" of dance. This begs a more basic question: if YOUR experience in teaching shows many beginning or bronze students ask about leads, shouldn't the "Champion" instructors have also been able to anticipate such questions, and address the matter? Especially since any video is a one-way communication to a broad audience, doesn't the instructor NEED to anticipate questions?

I'll repeat: given the title and the way this DVD was marketed, it is a rip-off, suitable IMHO only for choreographed routines. I also mentioned I asked the producer to correct me if I was in anyway unfair concerning my assessment of the video. And so far, all that's happened is a notable ducking of the question.

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Dance Forums

Anymouse,

Sometimes I believe you are a genius. You have a gift when it comes to explaining things few understand about dancing.

The patterns, no matter how difficult are just patterns, but what you described is the heart and soul of what makes a true dancer ♫

This is a little bit stabbing in the dark since you have seen the dvd in question and we havent, but could there be some confusion between material intended as a technical exercise to build physical skills and reflexes, vs material intended as something to incorporate in a dance?

I dont believe that more than briefly seperated "choereography" belongs in a bronze or beginner applied dance, but solo or otherwise preplanned drills have a key role in mastering actions, particularly in the latin dances. In some places these are even done at socials as line dances.

Well, the DVD in question is entitled _Beginning-Intermediate (Bronze) Dips, Drops & Tricks for all Styles of Dancing_, and it's put out by DanceVision. If anyone is curious, there is a "on-line" sample available at their web site of the first figure from the DVD. The lack of information regarding lead/set-up in the sample hadn't bothered me before I bought the DVD, as I knew that many DV instructors have an introductory discussion on such things before teaching the first figure. Regrettably, that was NOT the case in this instance. The page, with their description and the link to the sample video, is here: http://www.dancevision.com/store/DBF34/

anymouse, I'm sorry, but no, there is no chance the lessons were meant as exercises, or anything other than something to be incorporated into actual dance. As I mentioned in the first post, the video does have some positive features, such as a good deal of care is shown in covering some technical aspects of position, etc., but...

Especially given the nature of the video -- people have been hurt, and back in the '90's, a gal was even killed while doing dips/tricks during a dance -- the lack of instruction on proper communication between partners seems especially unforgivable. Hence, my earlier comment about the mess on the floor.

Again, if somebody is familiar with this product, and is aware of something I'm missing, I'd welcome the education: that's why I shelled out the money for the DVD in the first place.

Dips drops and tricks are not bronze, but the kind of thing that people who have a well developed idea of each others capabilities might add to a showcase, or under very trusting circumstances a special social dance.

If you can detect a stranger's capabilities accurately enough during a dance to judge if incorporating tricks is wise, then you probably also have the insight to lead those that are leadable and distinguish them from those which require joint preplanning and rehearsal.

Hi anymouse,

I tend to agree with your assessment that drops and tricks are not bronze. But ignoring that, the point is that one is going to learn them, they have to start somewhere.

To back up a bit, discounting some childhood lessons, I've been dancing regularly for 8 or 9 years, mostly ballroom and American rhythm. I work at a University, and am a member of various dance clubs. Part of my motivation in getting this particular DVD was seeing students teaching other students to do dips, tricks and even lifts. These are items - beyond a few basic dips - in which I never received any training or instruction. I have enough experience to tell that many of the things being done were not being done properly - but I didn't know enough to identify or correct what I saw as "wrong."

So what I wanted when I bought this DVD was something that was not JUST for me and my partner, but also as something that would allow me to mitigate the mis-teachings of others. I could, as your post suggests, apply common-sense as to my own doings, and as you and Jonathan suggest, work out my own entries to at least some of these dips. But - I was also looking for what might be described as the "best practices" for teaching others how to do things/not do things. Since a DVD teaches to a broad audience, I, at least, would expect them to use such best practices.

After looking at the clip and reading the description, it appears to me their only major mistake was labeling it "Beginning to Intermediate".

The move I looked at was simple as far as drops are concerned, but drops themselves are somewhat advanced. So I can see where it's very much a matter of interpretation.

As for being socially leadable, the drop itself is. The context surrounding it is much more of a showdance thing, but that's not too surprising coming from a Cabaret couple. (Cabaret, for those who don't know, is a competition style where couples perform shows on stage alone, which include lifts and drops). I don't see any mention on the web page about social dancing, so I don't think there's any false advertising there. At the very worst, one might consider the "beginning to intermediate" title misleading in this regard, if one believes that the word "beginning" implies social dancing. An argument could definitely made against that, however.

If you strip away the surrounding performance-based elements and just look at the root, most of these movements (based on the one I saw) are probably socially leadable enough, although some may be outside of the scope of what you'd *want* to do on a crowded floor. From what I gathered, the idea is to adapt these movements into any style of dancing, so in that regard the context is irrelevant. If social dancing is your thing, then obviously you would strip away the parts that are not appropriate for that type of dancing. For example, the drop I saw would work just fine if you begin in some sort of closed position and break right into the drop, or transition in smoothly with some sort of underarm turn.

As mistakes go, I don't find it incredibly offensive. They could rename it, at least on the website, and possibly amend the description. But it wouldn't be the kind of thing that would cause me personally to go to great lengths to state any objections. Frankly I find the withholding of negative customer reviews much more appalling as a business practice.

Regards,
Jonathan

Hi Jonathan, and thank you for your views. You certainly know more on the topic than I do, but I would disagree with your comment "...if one believes that the word 'beginning' implies social dancing." From my point of view, it is the word "all" in the title that implies "social dancing."

I agree the drop in the first clip is simple, and your suggestion regarding developing an appropriate closed-position is sensible -- especially for someone who is experienced in doing dips, etc. But for a beginner, who is trying to learn the figure itself? WHY place the added burden of a trial-and-error approach on someone who hasn't mastered the content yet? To me, at least, that is not a sound instruction. Why not just teach it from a closed position, and maybe add a variation or two if that is what is needed to provide broader flexibility?

I certainly agree with your approbation of withholding negative customer reviews. And whether you agree with my assessment of this particular product or not - that WAS the point of my starting this particular thread.

So I don't agree so much with learning something as dangerous as this by videotape...however...

Dips and Drops, as well as Learning to Lift with the Savoys and the flexibility work are three good VHS tapes on lifts and drops and dips. It has good information, he tells you how not to hurt yourself and she tells the lady how to make it easy.

So look for the Savoys. Also...it is an older VHS, the videography is gaggy, the clothes are worse but the info is good.