I think rise @ e/o 1 could be a foot rise enabling the release of the heel from the floor w/o body rise until the LF has rolled from the inside edge to the ball (on count 2) then there is body rise. cont. to rise on three...lower at the e/o 3. maybe?

This sounds to be what i'm doing.
Going back to my earlier comment about the Hilton video - if you take a long stride on beat one, with soft knees, it's inevitable that the upper body will lower.
At a lesson i had once with a good UK professional, i was dancing my slow waltz, which at that time started with a simple whisk. He stopped me immediately and said that my very first movement should be a lowering as my standing leg softened to provide the forward drive for beat 1.
Another teacher spent many hours with me practising natural turns, getting me to lower on 1 and only START to rise at beginning of 2, continue to rise during 2 ,being up at the start of 3 and lowering at the end of 3.
An earlier comment about keeping upper body high while lowering with the knees is an important one. It's very easy (as i know to my cost!) to 'slump' down when lowering. I'm not sure i fully understand the other comment about keeping the upper body 'down' while rising.

To Phil. Staying down with the upper body simply means don't try to lift. You would be surprised to see how some people lift through their their shoulders, and not let the undercarrage do the work. In other words, as you would lower, so you will rise.

Hi everyone! Melissa Atkinson here, filling in for Jonathan. (Perhaps he will have two cents to add later)There are a couple of potentially confusing issues here, and a myriad of pitfalls to be avoided.To begin at the beginning dealing with Man's part only, the ISTD describes rise and fall for 1-3 of the Natural Turn as: commence to rise end of 1, continue to rise 2 & 3, lower end of 3. You really have to begin on the 3, because the you must begin with the lowering. (And you must remember when interpretting book technique that a majority of your time is spent in motion between the steps, rather than actually ON a step.)When you have completed your lowering on 3, you should not lower any further. There is a tendency to do this accidentally because as you divide your legs, you have to actually extend them to maintain your level. If you leave them bent you will continue to sink. So, your legs will be extended between your feet, and as you arrive on step 1 your right knee will bend. The "commence to rise at end of 1" is the rolling to the ball of the right foot as you move toward step 2, and while the legs will extend between steps 1 & 2, the leg rise will not truly begin until after the weight transfer onto step 2, at which point the rising action and the swing will bring the feet together for step 3.IMO the highest point of rise is at the moment of weight transfer onto step 3. From there, a gradual lowering is immediately commenced. Which side of this argument one lands on depends on which fault one is more afraid of....weak feet or lowering on the 1. I'm usually more concerned about lowering on the 1, (which I'm sure is the trouble that you're having, Phil.) Continued lowering on step 1 will interfere with the creation of the upswing, and basically botch up the entire action.I can absolutely agree with Don's quote from Steven Hillier. This idea of opposition between the upper body and lower body is very commonly used in ballet, and helps to maintain both grounding and stretch while also preventing any rise and fall "flapping." :)))Hope this helps!-Melissa

Hi Melissafirst of all - isn't it brilliant to have a site like this where such topics can be discussed. I know of no other site which comes close in this regard.OK - i'm remembering 2 things as i write this:-1)watching Marcus and Karen Hilton do their slow waltz on "Developing the Essentials" and studying it frame-by-frame2)a class i had where i was stopped after the first bar and told that my first movement should be a lowering - this lead to me re-thinking what i was doing and, i'm pretty sure, improving my dancing (at least, my slow waltz!!)After reding what you said, Melissa, i went into the corridoor here at work and tried out a few movements (I've long stopped bothering about the looks on my work colleagues' faces) to try to rationalise what i was doing relative to your comments.I plant my feet 'on the beat' with my right heel landing as i count "1" (this is for natural turn). As my foot is planted, my body is at it's lowest point(i think), and my knees are fairly flexed.However, my movement immediately prior to this plant is during the end of beat 3 (i count the half beats when i practise, and i call this 3&).So strictly, this lowering could be called the end-of-3 lowering. There is much scope for discussion on exactly when in the music feet are planted- indeed, when the beats are. I always assume the beats are counted like the written notes. At the instant the first note is struck, i count "1" and the gap to the 2nd note is 1&, etc.My mind is boggling, so time for coffee.Still not sure what this opposition between upper and lower body is all about, but then there's always something to learn.

Hi Phil,

First, with regard to the lowest point in rise and fall, I can agree that the collection of your weight on the 1 is the lowest point. However....if you TRY to make 1 your lowest point, aka lower onto the 1, you will create a late lowering and a poor quality of movement. You must try to complete your lowering at the end of 3 to create a forward, linear movement on the 1. The collection and compression of your body weight into your right leg on the 1 will be caused by the bending of your right knee, which will make the 1 the lowest point, BUT it will be only very slightly lower than the transition to the 1.

I agree 100% that your first movement should be a lowering. That is what I meant by "starting with the 3" in my previous post. You must lower BEFORE moving forward, (or any other direction for that matter.) Then you will not be lowering on 1, but you will most definitely be DOWN on 1. (Forgive all my caps...there are no italics and these things get so wordy, I feel a need to make the important bits stand out.)

As for opposition between the upper and lower body, we could go on and on about that, but for the moment I'll just explain in the context of rise and fall.

The idea is simply that as you lower (from the base) you feel that your upper body continues to stretch upward. This prevents the common problem of the upper body slumping as you lower through the knees. As you rise, you feel your shoulder weight connect downward into the floor. This prevents the (again) common problem of the shoulders coming up as you rise, and also helps to improve grounding and balance.

Obviously, as you focus on the opposition of the upper body to the rise and fall, your upper body is in fact still moving up and down along with the lower body, but it is not compounding what the lower body is doing.

I would also like to figure some ideal consistent way of describing timing relative to music and relative to movement, but my brain is not up for it at this precise moment. :) Maybe later!

-Melissa

Many thanks for this Melissa. I will be thinking about my upper body movements a lot more in the next few months!. I certainly had a tendency to slouch in the past on some lowerings, but i think i've corrected that.

Phil

The misinderstanding of the correct technique in rise and fall has been a pet subject of mine for a long time. As Melisse suggested there has to be a loss of height as the feet get further apart. If we go far enough we will do the splits. That is what some people misinterpret as further lowering. You would n't believe how many arguements I have been involved in regarding this topic, even with some people who teach and should know better. Now this has been confirmed by an expert, Melisse, we had better have a look at the first step of the Feather in Foxtrot had n't we. Whoops!!

Now you've put your foot in it!!

The timing of the waltz is rely 1@2@3@ the reason for this is to use the whole bar of music with a continious movement,even gleave an 8 time world champion would count the first few bars of music this way every time he competed in order to get into the groove. IF you arrive to early at the top you will have to pause to wait for the music to catch up ,thereby loosing important momentum that with the help of gravity will carry you down and project you forward into the next movment. The lowest point is 3@ .The highest point is 3. Moving onto the right heel on (one} is a forward movement with right knee flexing to create a soft movment, the left knee coming alongside the right knee with full weight over the right foot on [1@}