Yes, the shoulders can rotate more freely than the hips.

But we also have to ask, what does rotating the shoulders accomplish?

In a feather type outside partner step, the maximum clearance for the moving leg would be achieved if the shoulders - and hence the offset in the hold - where kept perpendicular to the direction of travel and only the hips were rotated. In contrast, most want to feather the shoulders towards the direction of travel.

This seems to be an area of technique open to further investigation.

Anonymous. I am fortunate to have a tape by John Woods which I believe is no longer available. On this tape he demonstrates solo the steps being taught. We get a look front side and back. In this case the Feather and Reverse Turn in the Foxtrot is the topic. After I was told by a professional to , on the Reverse, brush step three , the second quick closer to my Rf. And wouldn't you know that's exactly as per John. As I see it, to do that, the First step has to be in a definite position otherwise it will be impossible to brush the foot and get on to two floorboards only. Remembering we started our Feather Step on four tracks, if we are with our partners. I think all can see what I am driving at, and that is. The man on the Feather has one foot on board one. Then there is a gap which is floorboard two. The right foot is on board three. for the two quicks we are on two boards. Momentarily with our first of the Reverse we might be on three. and the, immediately back to two.
You know in all my years of dancing I have never come across this and without a doubt my second quick was far too wide. Any comments.

I don't think I fully understand what you are getting at, so all I can do is react to specifics on at a time.

First, for a general comment, I don't believe in this whole two tracks/four tracks thing. Each person's feet must always be on a single track directly under the path of your weight, or they will go off balance. The only exception is that if you are turning, and you want to use loss of balance as part of the act of turning. You can place the step before the turn slightly to the side so that your weight will pass on the turn side of that foot, letting you use it to influence your course. But if you do much of that, you won't be able to brush your feet going into the turn since the free foot would swing under your body which is no longer passing over the foot.

In the reverse, you could place the first quick wide of the turn, but the second quick must not continue in the original direction, since it is placed after the turn has occured. You might be able to brush your feet going into the second quick, but you should actually place them somewhat apart, left foot closer to wall than right - you are now backing down LOD and not continuing to drift to DC. Also be very sure to leave you top underturned as prematurely completing the turn can similarly throw the lady off balance.

Whenever mentioning specific teachers, it may be insightful to research their position within the various stylistic camps - this can help a lot in interpreting what they say.

What I mean by learning to place teachers within styles is that you can't simply cherry pick advice from varied sources to create a complete whole; the advice only makes complete sense in the context of the rest of the teacher's dance style. Tidbits of advice from the camps of other experts are intersting, but need to be translated into whatever style you pursue.

thanks johnathan i had no idea what it ment 'cause im just a beginer .ur explanation was very clear and clean and simple

Anonymous. Third step Reverse turn Foxtrot for the man. If I am to brush my passing foot close to the supporting foot, which is the correct thing to do. Quote from the book. "Do not let the third step swing outwards. Keep it under the body ", Then I must turn more on the first step. I've been looking and I see , (not world champions ). that they step off this first step without much of a turn with their left foot. Now they are creating a gap , no chance what so ever of being able brush the foot past. Which our best dancers are able to do.

Only video example I have on hand at the moment is Marcus Hilton. I can't see any turn in his left foot on the first step of the reverse, but he turns his body between the first two steps. By the time he passes over his right foot he has mostly complete the turn, but is moving a little bit sideways. His left foot following under the body swings in and brushes past the right, but then still following the body it swings a bit back out, landing about shoulder width wide.

You don't want to place the foot wide on it's own without the body, but you also don't want to place the third step in CBMP, which is to down LOD from the second.

Never say never. The Feather is a good working example of your premise, but there are examples of CBMP being the direct result of rotation on the same step (eg natural pivots, spin turn, etc), making "not usually" more accurate than "never".

There are also situations where CBM and CBMP are concurrent (eg the forward step OP following a chasse), and in such situations it's debatable as to whether the position is a result of the rotation or not. If you're a stickler for book technique, you'd argue that your body is already set up in the position, and that the CBM is minimal and strictly of the curving variety. Those who prefer a freer and fuller swinging action will break from the book technique slightly by allowing the body to wind up prior to the OP step. When this is done CBMP becomes the result of the CBM. So like I said, it's debatable.

Still, this is all beside the point. When I speak of CBMP being the result of CBM, I'm usually teaching someone what *not* to do in normal closed position situations. From a teaching standpoint, this is by far the most common mistake of newcomers (and even some not-so-newcomers).

Regardless of the frequency of occurence of any particular action in actual dancing, the fact remains that in terms of the basic principles of movement, CBMP can be achieved either by altering your direction, or by maintaining your direction and altering orientation (ie rotating), or a little of each. Assuming you're not deliberately stepping across your track, whether or not you end in CBMP is determined by how quickly you turn your body in relation to how quickly you travel. Beginners make the mistake of turning too quickly in relation to their progression, thus finishing in CBMP when they shouldn't. How many times have we seen the man's left side dropped out and pulled back into step 1 of the basic reverse turn in Viennese Waltz?

"Officially" there is actually turn. It's just not stated clearly in those terms (Then again... what ever is in the ISTD technique?). The evidence of rotation is (1) the existence of CBM on the first step, which defined as rotation, (2) the second step having a "left side leading". You can't be square to your feet on step 1, then have a left side leading on 2 and *not* turn in between.

Remember that the ISTD technique specifically describes turn as being measured through the feet. So when you read the chart and see that there is no turn on a feather step, all you're being told is that the feet don't turn. In other words, "amount of turn" speaks nothing to the rotation of the body. For that, you are required to read between the lines, and that's where concepts like "CBM", "side-leading", "body turns less" etc come into play. It's the only way in which the ISTD makes reference to body rotation independently of the feet. Convoluted though it may be in its description, body rotation on the feather step is most definitely "officially" recognized.

At any rate, regardless of what the ISTD thinks, on any good Feather there is definitely some additional rotation between 1 and 2. Without it, you'd either be starting step 3 totally squared-off to your partner and thus ill-prepared to step O.P., or you'd have to already have your left side leading on 1, which is the same as saying you'd be in CBMP.

Regards,
Jonathan

Hi,
So, when is CBM applied? Is it on the actual step or is it on the previous step? i.e. Feather Step, as gent. Having taken the weight onto the RF, on step 1, is the left side of the body then swung forward or is the left side of the body already turned from using CBM on the supporting LF? Of course, it's the latter. With the body already shaped with a left side lead, at the end of the first step, the body does not rotate to the right over steps 2 and 3. If you feel there is a body rotation between 2 and 3, I would like to know for what reason? By the way, Nod, John, does not like to be referred to as Woods. His surname is Wood.

LLuv2dance. With all the different comments it proves to me that there is no one path we can follow. I'm glad we are not steering a ship. We are so divided on something that should be set in cement. If we were back on the ship some of us would finish in the North Pole and others the South. My sympathy goes out to the ladies who have to in a split second decipher the codes being sent to them . Bye the bye, John Wood's tape How's that.