Thank you Anon and Phil for your reply. Onlooker and Don. I believe your postings should have been displayed elsewhere. My message - if you read it again - is about the closing foot on step 3 of the Natural Turn in the Waltz, as lady. This action was just brought up in general conversation with my new coach. My previous coach was trained by the late Major Eric Hancox, UK.

Puzzled. Yes things did get carried away. The answere is that the closing foot in the modern Waltz is a toe untill the feet come together. At this point you are on both toes. Then the closing foot, the heel lowers to the floor.

Perhaps you should explain what you mean by 'closes first'. One poster seems to be giving you answers about what part of the foot is in contact with the floor, but it doesn't look like that's what you asked. And since some other questions came up, those have gotten answered.

But really, what exactly was your question?

OK - it's getting interesting. also, hard to respond and refer to specific posts (maybe numbers on the posts would help - hint!!)
To Anon - "rise begins at end of 1" - Is this end of step 1, which ends as my left foot is passing my standing right foot? i.e. middle of beat 1 ,roughly, - or is it the end of beat 1, which is just before i plant my left foot. The technique books specifies the first of these, so i'll assume that.
More interestingly - about the right heel being off the floor before the left foot passes - i'm pretty sure i don't do that (just tried in my office here!!). But if i do, i really don't think it makes much difference, but i will try that more realistically, and thanks for pointing that out. I think i'm saving my foot rise to give me that extra little drive and swing just before my left plants to get a longer stride. Maybe i shouldn't be doing that.
Also "Step two is placed with the feet parallel and unturned". I'm certain i'm not doing that, and it's a bit of a shock! Are you sure of this? Don in his post says something slightly different, but points out that the feet should remain parallel. That's what i was sort of worrying about.
To Don "what do i do on a closed change"? There's no turn on a closed change, so the situation doesn't arise.I do count 1&2&3, but importantly, this is counting the BEATS in the music (i'm sure everyone would do this) yet the technique book refers everything to start and end of steps, which is roughly mid-beat. Hence the need to be very careful.
Maybe we should start a new post on this.
To Puzzled - i thought about your question and tried dancing as a lady on some turning steps. I understand your dilemma. I found it more natural to close the heel first (only by the slightest of fractions) on natural or reverse turns in slow waltz, because the moving foot is rotating as it's brought to close with the standing foot(whoops!! am i wrong again?). It would be easy to close them parallel too. closing the toe first? - that seems very unnatural.If there's no turning, then obviously close parallel. Why not?
Maybe your coach is thinking that since the forefoot is broader than the heel, when you close feet parallel, the toes will touch first. Remember also that i'm not a great dancer - keen intermediate!

Phil. What to do on a Closed Change. The teacher that I go to is currently placed very high in the world rankings. She has a class performing a succesion of forward closed changes. We push off the standing foot right to the extreme part of the toe, which gives us a full extension.As the weight arrives over what is now the standing foot the knee will flexed. The moving foot comes into a neutral position under the body line. This can be called a collection point, neutral gathering the weight or whatever. We are not allowed to swing the moving foot outwards untill it arrives under the body first. As it arrives the flexed knee of the standing knee will have stored up power to be used on the next step. This is the part where I was completely wrong. I moved off a flatish foot to my side step. There is supposed to be there a point where the heel leaves the floor of the standing foot and swing the second step. Which is exactly what we would do on a Natural including the collection point. The other most important excercise we do, and this can be done at home on a ridged carpet. We must feel every ridge of the carpet with the tip of our toes as our rear foot starts on its journey from behind. I have been checking a recent tape of a IDSA from St. Petersburg. And low and behold that extension right to the tip of the toe can be clearly seen especially in the solo Foxtrot. Somebody might say but that is a Foxtrot. The point I would like to make is that a forward step in the Waltz should not be very different to a forward walk in the Foxtrot.
This I suppose belongs on another thread.That discusion concerning whether the body arrives first or the foot. It is the foot that flights the body. Without the foot there is no flight. Without the feet we can't move. But be careful that we know that it is the rear foot that is working. To me it proves that the feet move the body not the body moves the feet. Without the bow the arrow will not fly.

Hi Don
Your points are very valid - the left foot moving to its plant on step 2 of a natural turn passes very close to the standing right foot (almost in a brushing action) - it is the turning of the body in the step that results in the left foot ending up to the side. It's a common problem with beginners that they step 'around' their partner instead of stepping 'through'.
However, my original point was on the directions of the feet. An earlier post suggests the left foot when planted is parallel to the standing right foot. i tried this and it's very unnatural. Isn't the turning action in a slow waltz continuous? That means it starts at the start of step one. i can turn my hips and body and still keep my left foot pointing forward, yet it's very unnatural.

Phil. Have you tried turning over your right foot. I find it good practise just to get the feel of turning over the foot, is to do 456 of a Spin Turn as lady. Facing LOD you must turn a half a turn on the right foot before stepping to the side. Now simply do the same on the first of the Natural except you don't have to turn as far. As you step to the side both feet should be pointing in the same direction. If this is difficult something is wrong. You should be able to draw your right foot to your left, be high on the toes and perfectly balanced. With the feet lined up there should not be any problem. There is a big but here, and that is what is your partner doing. It never ends , does it. It is a big help if in the beginning you had been doing it correctly. Now you must look at all your steps and make sure your technique is the same throughout. In this case are both feet pointing in the same direction. An Open Imputus is one to look at. Going into a Promenade from an Impetus. Are the foot pointing in the same direction, or is one pointing North and the other South.

Don, you're confusing two different steps. The spin turn has a turn of the foot on the first foward step, the natural does not. In both cases the foot moves forward in the line direction established at the end of the preceding step, but the action of the foot against the floor is different - one is something of a pivot, the other is a simple forward action over a foot that does not turn.

Many beginners do mistakenly turn their foot on the first step of a natural, but this creates a weaker action. The swing between 1 and 2 is sideways with respect to the body, but it's still purely forwards with respect to the feet, because the body turns a step before the feet do.

And it's different going backwards - there a moderate amount of turn in as the first step is placed can help things, because the action of the backwards inside of turn is entirely subservient to the needs of the forwards partner.

Anonimous. The RF turns, you have 1 and. to complete that step, and don't turn into the step. The left foot when placed will be pointing in the same direction as the RF. From there you are in the same position that you would be for a closed change. Fom there it is easy to get a controlled closure Try it, and see if you can without difficulty get high on your toes ,foot together and be perfectly balanced, and stay there on three. That is both you and your partner. I was given this many years ago. Do a closed change starting on the RF, and then back side together. Do it again but this time open up the first three steps. Then open up on the back side together. You've just completed a Natural Turn. Do the same on the LF and you have the Reverse Turn. All that is needed now are Change steps in between. This is an excellent way to teach a beginner and to prove to ones self that the technique remains constant.

Don, only the 1/4 turn version of the natural shares technique with the closed change in the way you suggest. The 3/8 turn version is a much more linear figure, such that the first two steps are placed with no turn to the feet - turn occurs only after the left foot is placed, as you are shifting weight onto it.