Suomynona. Nothing will take the place of a one to one with a competent teacher For example the book says rise at the end of one. Which means we are already down on one. But with the prep step most of us are the same height as we will be on one. I think you can see what I am driving at. We have lost the lowering on three before we even start.Then if we are not carefull we may carry this through the remainder of our Waltz. To my way of thinking it is the continuous downward swing from three into one which sometimes gets lost. Just to go back, we rise at the end of one. Which would mean we are at our lowest at the beginning of one.But how do we arrive in that position. In other words without the lowerin on three we have no one. They must join. Reading from the book you wouldn't think so

Right, which is why I was pretty careful about prefacing my explanation with a description of where I interpret the step to be with respect to the beat.

Even though the phrase "end of 3" might refer to a step and not a beat, every step still has to occur at some point in the music.

Although the technique book does not directly tie technical details to beats, they do so indirectly by describing an action (such as rise or sway) as being part of a step, and they do give the timing of that step. But again, because the scope of any step is fairly broad, and because there is no strict definition of the beginning and end-points of a step, and because a beat is a fairly broad span of time in which many actions can take place, there's a lot of room for interpretation.

However, there's a lot less interpretive wiggle room on a closing step than most others, because once the feet are closed, a weight change is almost insignificant in terms of time span. It's certainly not long enough to have a beginning, middle or end... The moment you begin the action, you're already done. So it's sort of silly to describe anything as being at "the end of" a closed weight change.

Clearly, in this instance there is at least some alluding to the time span following the action. The action itself takes practically no time, and the remainder of the action is really no action at all. In this instance, when they say "end of 3", they could be implying that it's the end of the span of time following the action, not the action itself.

This is exactly the reason why I couldn't describe what it means to be at the "end of 3" without bringing timing into it, particularly on the closing step at the end of a basic natural or reverse turn.

Now if you want to think of step 3 as being the action of drawing the feet closed in addition to the weight change -- and you definitely could make a case for that -- "end of 3" would take on an entirely different meaning. First off, the action would indeed take place over a span of time -- first you have to close your feet, then you change weight -- which means the action would have a beginning and an end. As a result, the end would be the weight change itself. This means that you would lower right as you were closing your feet.

The other implication there is that like most passing actions, the beginning of the step would not coincide with the beginning of the beat, which is fine. But *un*like foot passing actions, this one begins long before the moving foot has reached the passing foot.

Pick your own interpretation. Either one has its limitations. But whichever one you prefer, they both mean the same thing: You can't wait too long after closing your feet to begin lowering and dissolving your sway.

Regards,
Jonathan

Isn't it a great pity that in dancing, we have this definition of the start of each step as being the point at which the feet pass (i'm thinking 'simple' 1-2-3 of waltz natural turn) whereas the music we're dancing to has a different, but well defined and very consistent and universal definition of the start of a beat. It's the cause of much confusion in my view.
I realise that, just as in music, the timing can be massaged to add individual interpretation; but i'm talking basics, which are the foundation for everything else.
Maybe it adds to the fascination of dancing, but it must hold back beginners. Since even the best dancers would dance the basic 1-2-3 of waltz natural turn with their foot plants on the musical beats, it would be an interesting exercise(perhaps a student master's research project??) to re-write parts of the technique book accordingly

The best interpretation is the one you understand and can impliment to give you good results. As for how quickly you lower once you change feet, I thought it was up to gravity. The timing of the body to arrive at the top of the swing with the weight on the RF just at that point when gravity has slowed us down and wan'ts to reverse our direction. As you said earlier Soumy, we keep the timing with our body and not the feet,so Johnathan's explantion of the timing of the Swing Sway will work best for me. Cheers Dave

"However, there's a lot less interpretive wiggle room on a closing step than most others, because once the feet are closed, a weight change is almost insignificant in terms of time span. It's certainly not long enough to have a beginning, middle or end... The moment you begin the action, you're already done. So it's sort of silly to describe anything as being at "the end of" a closed weight change."

"Now if you want to think of step 3 as being the action of drawing the feet closed in addition to the weight change -- and you definitely could make a case for that -- "end of 3" would take on an entirely different meaning. First off, the action would indeed take place over a span of time -- first you have to close your feet, then you change weight -- which means the action would have a beginning and an end. As a result, the end would be the weight change itself. This means that you would lower right as you were closing your feet."

A closing step actually is defined to begin at the point when the closing foot is halfway closed. Ordinarily we would say it would end when the other foot passes or seperates to begin the next step, but because the footwork given for the closing foot is expliticly TH, we know that the step cannot be considered to end until the heel of that foot has touched the floor. The other foot will be somewhat passed by that time, however the upper thighs will still be fairly closed - the bulk of the foot's travel takes place as the weight is supported from the standing heel.

It does not seem that the instant of weight change is any more characteristic of the beginning, end, or instant, of a closing step than it is of a passing step - it is something that happens in the middle. It's my feeling actually that the swing will continue up a small amount even as the weight changes onto the receiving leg before the lowering begins - one will step "up" onto that foot not "down" onto it. That we lower "end of 3" is fairly obvious, since it seems like the last thing that has to happen in that step's duration is the strike of the lowering heel.


The other implication there is that like most passing actions, the beginning of the step would not coincide with the beginning of the beat, which is fine. But *un*like foot passing actions, this one begins long before the moving foot has reached the passing foot.

Well I am going to forget this nonsense of floating onto to the second beat and go back to the way I was taught years ago by my teacher a world finalist. That is to continue to rise on two through the flexing of the knee on the second step. Some may wish to dance the NT differently,but I would like to see them dance a whisk and chasse without using the knee on the second step. If it's good enough for Mirko Gozzoli 2005 World Champion it's good enough for me. And I don't see how you can dance the softness or the correct rise and fall any other way.

"Well I am going to forget this nonsense of floating onto to the second beat and go back to the way I was taught years ago by my teacher a world finalist. That is to continue to rise on two through the flexing of the knee on the second step."

The knee does flex some and re-extend, but this is simply to fill the varying distance between the body and the floor - the body is not lifted by action of the arriving leg, but by the swing off the deparing one. You must float onto the step, but the knee will move as a result of doing that, it just will not do "work".

I disagree. This is only true in foxtrot,not in the Waltz. Your method in Waltz reminds me of a W/E golfer who hits at the ball,his energy stops at the ball and his club head drift starts to early. The Profesional golfer will hit through the ball,he is still producing energy right through the hitting zone ,so the drift of the club head will by late in the swing path. Just like in the Waltz the drift does not start untill the end of the swing, somewhere near the end of the second beat and continues untill we are down at the end of three . If we only produce power on the lowering and first step we drift to early just like the W/e golfer. The second step is where we can add a little more gas to keep the swing going untill we reach the top of the swing. Your method is what I call the Rocket and Parachute aproach.

"I disagree. This is only true in foxtrot,not in the Waltz. Your method in Waltz reminds me of a W/E golfer who hits at the ball,his energy stops at the ball and his club head drift starts to early. The Profesional golfer will hit through the ball,he is still producing energy right through the hitting zone ,so the drift of the club head will by late in the swing path. Just like in the Waltz the drift does not start untill the end of the swing, somewhere near the end of the second beat and continues untill we are down at the end of three . If we only produce power on the lowering and first step we drift to early just like the W/e golfer. The second step is where we can add a little more gas to keep the swing going untill we reach the top of the swing. Your method is what I call the Rocket and Parachute aproach."

Sure... but the active part of the second step occurs while the weight is being supported and pushed from the foot that took the first step. It's the arriving foot that has very little role.

Also note that depite what your golf teacher may say, no action that occurs after the brief period of contact between the ball and the club will have any effect on where the ball goes, though it could be important in lowering the risk of injury to yourself.

Soumy. I just got back from practice and once again you are right What I dance fortunatly is not always what I quote