Well, this is interesting. I've been taught for a long time not to lead with my arms. I know you're not actually saying this, Don - you're talking feelings not actuality (felt not seen, as you put it very well), but i've been trying to kick the habit and lead with my hips and body and not even think about using my arms.
Anyone any views on this?
And any ideas about props - which is where this started?

Don .We dance in one piece. We place the lady on her heal or into a position with the whole body. It may feel that we cradle the lady into a position but our pelvis has to be under our spine. We let the arm breath (right hand moves further away from the front of our body). We can also use the weight of the arms to help with sways and body rotations ,but not independant of the rest of the spine. The Lady want's a solid one piece frame and also one that is relaxed but has tone.

We also lead th lady with the whole body not just the arms, so I don't see how we can even think of the arms going first.

Actually the most advanced dancers do have a miniscule preview action in their arms that precedes the body action transmitted through the arms. When I say miniscule, I mean it - you would never see it. Probably bettter for most of us to leave it out as if we did it we would be leading with our arms.

I think this action is more of a slight lowering and forword action of the shoulders. It relaxes the muscle at the base of the neck removing any tension felt there and streatches the neck and spine given a nice presentation into the first step.

Phil. It is well worth taking a serious look at the position of the right elbow in relation to your body on step 2 of a Reverse Turn Waltz. We all know where it was when we started. That is the elbow in front of the body. ( How any body can say that the arm doesn't arrive first, can't be in the correct poition when they started ). On step two, this is the big common mistake. The body starts to get in front of the arm. The elbow is no longer in the front of the body. This is why as a prop you can use the tie thing by setting the distance and keeping the tie tight.I was shown this one with a tea towel stuck down my front top button. That was even harder to keep it tight without pulling the towel out.
Imagination. You have a four paned window about 16 inches x 16 inches. Two of the panes of glass are missing. The one to your right has glass in it The one opposite has no glass. the next one has. We are now back to the beginning. The window is put over your head onto the shoulders. Your partner is in her position . When we move or turn it is impossible to move into the square to our right or our left. Our partner the same. When we turn the whole unit turns. Crazy but it does tell a storey. So Phil maybe some person in the near future will see a tall gentleman running up hill backwards with a window over their head.

Don. You are making a big issue out of nothing. If you dance with your frame your elbows will remain in the same place throughout the dance.

Hi Don
My right elbow problem is that it drops when i do a natural turn (with sway).
I agree with you that visualisation is very important. I need a visualization to stop this.

Phil. Is your partners weight on that right arm? She has to hold her own left arm up with only slight contact on your arm. Are you causing her to tip her weight onto that arm. This could happen if you are turning on the spot or trying to sway instead of concentrating on all the correct technique to dance the NT.

John. It is interesting. The bit about the arms being in front of the body. Which has to move the farthest and the quickest. Its not your centre. At school as a child you probably made what they called a chain, or at the ice rink. The person at the start is hardly moving. The person on the outside is flying. Do natural laws change just because we are now dancing.The right side hand and forearm are going the farthest and to keep up is also going the quickest, and is in front at the beginning, and must be in the samer position at the end. Another way. Put your elbows behind the body. Do step two of a Reverse. The body arrived first didn't it. Now put the elbows just in front of the body,well. We have not yet even touched the left side where the man's and ladies palm are flat onto each other with no gap at all between the palms. Thumbs slightly up man and lady for a better lead on the left side. Have a look at any of the IDSF finals. Not one didn't have the thumbs really protruding, or slightly protruding.