"I'll buy into this one. I can find no Preperation Step in my book . Please show me. But even if there is, lets say there is."

Look at the end of almost every figure. This is the mandatory preparation action. Dance it from a standing start and it is called a prep step. Because you start already halfway lowered (ie, standing height) you may prefer to step onto a flat rather than the toe.

"So do we have a preperation step to allow us to do a preperation step. where will it start."

Most couples do, but that is more of a preference than a physical need. You cannot start normal dancing from a standing start - something must be done to get going. (Though the consquence of going directly into a reverse figure may be less than that of a dead start to a natural one)

"I doubt whether you will ever see a top dancer going to the last part of his rear toe as you will on the following step, and if you don't see the very last of his back toe, the step must have been smaller with less intensity."

It is a fallacy to think that dancers going to the extreme of their rear toe are doing this to push. They are not - by the extreme of the toe they are being carried by their pre-existing momentum. No preceding momentum, no extreme toe. Professinals doing a prep step won't have extreme momentum because they are just starting. Amateurs dancing around won't have extreme momentum because they aren't strong enough.

"How could you possibly think that a Preperation step has the same power as the first step."

You are confusing the power at the beginning of a step and at it's end. The power at the beginning of the prep step is about half of normal, because all you have is the potential energy of normal standing height as compared to the fully lowered height. You must add extra energy from your muscles if you hope to be at full power by the time you commence the first step of the first real figure. The power at the end of the prep step, is, rather obviously the power at the beginning of the first figure, because these are the same instant in time.

If sufficient power is achieved during the course of the prep step, then from teh first step of the first figure onwards, dancing can use normal swing dynamics - which is to say absolutely constant energy, transitioning smoothly between altitude and speed, with muscles only working to make up that lost to friction and inefficiency.

"In your paragraph ten, the bit about the hobbyist and the body flight. We reading this are not hobbyists."

Are you training several hours every day? Working with a world ranked coach? Spending a few hours in the gym? If not, you are a hobbyist in terms of the physcial energy level of your dancing. If you choose to use the same scale actions used by professionals, you will be dancing in an uncoordinated manner - you cannot fully utilize some actions without have the body speed necessary to create time for their full coordinated usage.

"Dancing is an Art and not a Science. In Science we add a drop of this to a drop of that, and come up with the same result every time, In dancing definately no.""

Mix things in the wrong proportions and the results are unpredictable. You might get it right (a few do) but more likely you will be limited by never quite chancing on the right balance of inputs - unless you identify them and work towards that systematically.

Suomynona. Phargraph 6 would indicate that the prep step is of less intensity than the first step of the Waltz or Foxtrot which was said in the first place. 8.3.06 8.26pm . Nobody was talking about a prep step and going to the last part of the toe on the prep step, which is what you have written . Once we get going the drive must be coming from the standing foot, which we are supposed to stand on longer. Enough push than we must be going to the last part of the toe. Does anyone think that the first step in a Waltz is any different than the Foxtrot. Don't anyone say the timing is different. I'm sure you didn't mean that by pre- existing momentum there are no full stops or comas in dancing. We don't wind up like a clockwork toy going from one step to the other right to the end of the dance do we?.

"Once we get going the drive must be coming from the standing foot, which we are supposed to stand on longer. Enough push than we must be going to the last part of the toe."

It sounds like you may be still operating under the mistaken idea that the amount of energy in dancing varies during the course of ordinary swing figures. In fact it does not, the energy is as constant as we can make it, but it is continuously changing form between the kinetic energy of body speed, and the potential energy of body rise. Once you understand this, it is clear that it will be necessary to achieve the full ordinary energy before real dancing can begin. It is the job of the prep step - to take you from the medium potential energy level of standing height, to the full kinetic energy needed at the commencement of step one, through a combination of lowering an muscular push. After that point, your muscles most only work to make up the losses - friction, and whatever degree you are not coordinated enough to maintain the energy through the transitions.

"Does anyone think that the first step in a Waltz is any different than the Foxtrot."

It is, yes, in that the trajectory in the vertical plane differs as hinted at in the given rise. But that's largely a different topic.

"I'm sure you didn't mean that by pre- existing momentum there are no full stops or comas in dancing. We don't wind up like a clockwork toy going from one step to the other right to the end of the dance do we?. "

My post contained the qualifier that the energy was constant throughout swing figures. A hesitation or comma performed with the feet flat to the floor is outside of the realm of swing dynamics. (A risen one, however is aking to a normal part of the waltz cycle). It's a fine thing to dance one of these flat hesistations, but once you have done it you must regain the swing energy, through what is essentially a new prep step. I also pointed out that the consequences of not doing this are less if you go into a reverse figure than if you go into a natural figure. I'm not entirely sure why, but it may be because reverse figures tend to have a compartively abreviated swing, so there may be more time to build up energy before it's lack is obvious - start a natural figure with insufficient energy and it will not lookk at all right.

Suomynona. Now we have the question on the prep step, which I believe we do agree, does not have the same intensity as the following step. Do we lower on the prep step. To put it another we rise at the end of the first step.If we are not in a lowered position on the prep step, were and how are we to rise at the end of the first step. We should not lower on step one, therefore we must be already down. As written somewhere above we never come of a flat foot. When a step is to the side as in a Reverse Turn Foxtrot. At the of step 4 to 5 we are on our toes with the weight right in the middle moving onto step 5 which is already in place.Which is accordance with the technique book. THT to T. This will also apply to moving off step 1 to step two in a Feather Step. Which takes us to the tip of the rear toe. I don't see how this step can be done from a flat foot, which would give me a ball and no toe. As you are aware the footwork is HT not Heel Ball. Just my thoughts and from some intense instruction.

"Suomynona. Now we have the question on the prep step, which I believe we do agree, does not have the same intensity as the following step."

What point in the prep step are you comparing to the following step? The intensity of the following step is constant, but that of the prep step is not. The final intensity of the prep step is obviously the same as the intensity of the first step since these are immediately adjacent. But the commencing intensity is much less.

"Do we lower on the prep step. To put it another we rise at the end of the first step.If we are not in a lowered position on the prep step, were and how are we to rise at the end of the first step. We should not lower on step one, therefore we must be already down."

Yes, I'm glad you brought this up as it's even simpler proof than the energy issues as to why a prep step is necessary. You cannot dance a full step one from standing height, and you cannot lower during step one. So you must dance something before step during which you fully lower.

"This will also apply to moving off step 1 to step two in a Feather Step. Which takes us to the tip of the rear toe. I don't see how this step can be done from a flat foot"

Whoever suggested that it could?

I think you are confusing the very important action of the standing foot while the moving foot is still in motion, with the fairly passive follow-through action that takes place thereafter. For a HT type step, the heel must lift before the other foot passes - but the weight does not necessarily have to go all the way to the toe if the step is not large (it most certainly does not go there in ordinary walking). If you are still pushing from a foot after you've placed the other, then you've not fully utilized body flight and the standing foot to cover more distance before placing the moving one. A push exterted after your step size has been deteremined can't really increase the step size, while if you would be unable to arrive over the newly placed foot without that push, you've most likely overstepped beyond your body flight by using an aggressive leg swing. In contrast, if the step is placed where the body flight and standing leg usage imply, you should have to exert quite a bit of ungainly effort to stop short of full arrival over it.

Hobbyist dancers may not take big steps and thus may have little post-placement follow through, but they still need to employ the active HT role of the standing foot to carry the body before the other is placed, otherwise their dancing will be all "step-y" without any continuity or grace to the body movement. As an exercise, see if you can figure out how to dance small, but with all of the usual continuity and grace. Hint - this is what we see on those old Blackpool videos people like to laught at.

I on step 4 to 5 on a Reverse Turn I am on my two toes. I then allow the lady to pass making sure I don't beat her to the step. My body faces the wall with the left shoulder slightly forward. The majority of men and, this is in every dance, forget that the lady is smaller ,not as strong and usually has shorter legs. Plus in the Reverse 4th
5th step she is on the outside and has further to travel. Of course the man having the stronger arms can haul the lady through. For the lady she should be backing the wall on step 5. and not overturned to backing diag to wall. If the Three Step is lousy this is where the problem starts.

"I on step 4 to 5 on a Reverse Turn I am on my two toes. I then allow the lady to pass making sure I don't beat her to the step. My body faces the wall with the left shoulder slightly forward. The majority of men and, this is in every dance, forget that the lady is smaller ,not as strong and usually has shorter legs. Plus in the Reverse 4th
5th step she is on the outside and has further to travel. Of course the man having the stronger arms can haul the lady through. For the lady she should be backing the wall on step 5. and not overturned to backing diag to wall. If the Three Step is lousy this is where the problem starts."

Whatever does this have to do with the thread of discussion?

Anyway, in between the issue of the man's swing and the three step is the question of the lady's use of the right heel to support herself at the end of step five, and her controlled lowering into steps 6 and 7. A lot of out of control three steps are a result of this - though it's possible that a miscoordinated swing may be an even earlier contributor.

Sunomynona. Last but one paragraph. Going to the extreme part of the toe. One thing that seems to be forgotten is that after the front foot is place , going backward or forward the foot does move. If you want proof try dancing on a floor where the foot sticks to the spot it has landed on. Awful isn't it.

"Sunomynona. Last but one paragraph. Going to the extreme part of the toe. One thing that seems to be forgotten is that after the front foot is place , going backward or forward the foot does move. If you want proof try dancing on a floor where the foot sticks to the spot it has landed on. Awful isn't it."

I rather reject your "proof" as I find the issue to occur only on placing the foot, not on leaving it.

Suomynona. I think we can put bed whether or not the rear foot goes to the very tip of the toe on a forward or backward step.If you takes your shoes off, and in your stocking feet use the whole of both feet when dancing from one foot to the other. What happens to the rear foot . What part of the toe is in contact with the floor as it starts on its journey forward. Going backwards makes no difference it still goes to the tip of the toe and rolling onto the heel of the front foot using every part of both feet.