Anonymous.I put the bit about being able to turn with the foot flat on the floor to prove it is and can be done. In modern I would turn over the ball. My main point being that in both Latin and Modern we must put our weight over our standing foot and not neither one or the other. Do it this way and we have a Pivot.
Actually Latin dancers with their technique would do a better Pivot than some Modern dancers on step four of a Spin Turn. They would treat it as a type of Back Spiral. Being that they train to be verticle and to keep it small, that's small on the rotation. Not bad for a beginner don't you think.

"Anonymous.I put the bit about being able to turn with the foot flat on the floor to prove it is and can be done."

It CAN be quite easily done, but IT ISN'T DANCED THAT WAY.

In place of an actual backwards pivot, champions are placing their foot pre-turned and then turning their body over the foot. They do not pivot their foot against the floor to any substantial degree. They do this other action instead. I'm sure they could dance a literal pivot, but they have CHOSEN NOT TO.

Again, I refer you to your video collection.

"Actually Latin dancers with their technique would do a better Pivot than some Modern dancers on step four of a Spin Turn."

Perhaps. But perhaps the reason modern dancer don't actually dance a pivot is that a pivot is not the most suitable action to use there.

Anonymous. What do you mean by pre turned. I assume you are on step four of a Natural Spin Turn The discription of the step is T. H. T. Which means what.

"Anonymous. What do you mean by pre turned."

I mean exactly what you will see if you consult your tapes - that the foot is turned 30 to 45 degrees or perhaps even more before it is weighted. It then does not turn much more until after the weight has left it.

This is obviously NOT A TRUE PIVOT. But it is what champion dancers use instead of a pivot.

Anonymous. Do you ever try what you preach. Step four Spin Turn the Pivot.
Turn the foot to an angle of 30 to 45 degrees. This would cross your feet and would look positively ugly
What you have seen is a step four taken diagnal to the wall whereas some take the step backing LOD.. And some others anywhere inbetween ( thats not skilled dancers). With the skilled dancer the alignment is definite.
What you suggested will cause knee or ankle trouble or both.

I believe you were calling yourself Soumynona then. Here's the Natural Spin Turn
Thread

as a example of what I'm talking about. Read the thread in it's entirety and note the points of view you constantly express about the prescribed technique.

Rha

Oh that - that was entirely about the POSITION of step four. It had nothing to do with the necessity of developing the action beyond the literal pivot that some would read the book to suggest.

And a perfect example of the difference is that the mis-placement of step four would also be a misplacement of that step relative to the needs of the back half of a natural - the placement of step four is the same for both a spin turn and a natural turn.

Wheras what I am recommending is that the action of step 4 of the spin turn be danced much closer to the action of step 4 of a natural turn, with very little pivoting of the foot against the floor (perhaps even none - which is what you will often see on champions)

So yes, I have recommended that some aspects of the spin turn need to be danced closer to the book. But not the aspect under present discussion. They are TWO SEPERATE ISSUES.

"So yes, I have recommended that some aspects of the spin turn need to be danced closer to the book. But not the aspect under present discussion. They are TWO SEPERATE ISSUES."

The specific aspects under discussion in this and that thread are minor in comparison to issue of a change in your broader perspective of ballroom dance. At that point and in other earlier threads you saw the prescribed technique as the 'be all and end all' of ballroom dance now you beginning to see it is the basis or a point of departure to more advanced technique. So you're maturing and learning from others on this forum as you go along, which puts you according to my estimate in the advanced Novice category at about 4 to 6 years of dance experience about to graduate to the Pre-Champ level. Though you never cease to stop selling yourself as a 'know it all', dance expert and some kind of final authority about what is acceptable or unacceptable in ballroom.

Rha

"The specific aspects under discussion in this and that thread are minor in comparison to issue of a change in your broader perspective of ballroom dance. At that point and in other earlier threads you saw the prescribed technique as the 'be all and end all' of ballroom dance now you beginning to see it is the basis or a point of departure to more advanced technique."

Nope.

If in fact you take the time to read through that old thread, you will see that I was advocating exceptions to the written technique even then. Specifically, I pointed out how step four of the spin turn is not danced the way it is written. I did allow the possibility someone might make the written way work, but more as an I can't prove they won't kind of thing than as an expectation.

Anonymous. IDSF Final. Five out of six did an Over Turned Spin Turn into a Turning Lock at the beginning of their Solo routine. The fourth step was taken diagonal to the wall including the sixth contestant. It can be seen that the step is down and that the heel appears to be lowered. What is apparant is that the man turns around his own centre once the lowering onto the step is complete. The body is at this point absolutely verticle. From there there is rise and fall, high on the toes on 5 6 lower at the end of. Down into the lock and so on.
The question still remains. Is step four a pivot and does it remain so whether we do an underturned or overturned or into more Pivots. Do we do the same action to whichever it might be..
When my teachers return after the UK Championships I will ask. That won't be till the beginning of Feburary after their spell in Japan. Till then mine is a pivot untill told otherwise.