Is this 'twisting' the same as what is referred to as 'keeping your centre toward you partner'?

I hate to speculate on what someone might mean when speaking in the abstract, but I could see how "center toward partner" might be referring to the rotation of the top.

It's a little ambiguous or misleading because your "center" could be referring to any number of places, and when one isn't being specific about which center, I would assume they're speaking about the true center of mass, which is lower (Some teachers refer to this as "low center"). And this is not the center you want to "keep toward your partner", because it's what causes your whole body to rotate and therefore takes your right side away from the man. So I think it's important to specify "high center", or sternum.

Also, the word "toward" isn't quite specific enough, either. Is it "rotated toward", or perhaps "oriented toward"? If so, then the answer to your question is yes. But many teachers give the instruction to "keep your center picked up to your partner", which is really in reference to the right side (external) connection -- In which case the answer to your question is no. So if someone were to say to me, "Keep your center toward your partner", I would ask them to clarify with a little more detail.

Regards,
Jonathan

Jonathan. I find this very intesting and would like to go one further. If I do not stand in a correct position whether it be man or lady, if I didn't have a shirt on my back, across the shoulder blades would look distorted. For a lady especially, the not so young, would look ugly to say the least. A simple test is to do as you suggested.
Sitting in a chair and twisting to the left will cause the muscles around my back on my right side to gather up or shorten. Even though I am covered the weak back is still there. I am thinking more of the look of the lady whos back is not covered. I realize that if the lady extends the right arm it will uncrease those muscles. But then we have another story.
How straight is the right arm. Is it whatever it takes to get a nice looking back. That is the question.

Mmmm... not necessarily. That will only happen if you use the wrong muscles. It's easy to think you're rotating the entire top when in fact you're disengaging the shoulders, causing distortion. When only the long muscles closest to the spine are used, the entire top rotates as a unit. The trick, of course, is finding these muscles, and this generally requires individual instruction.

One of the reasons I'm very specific about the position of having the fingertips touching the solar plexus with the elbows outstretched is because it tends to reduce the possibility of isolated shoulder usage. It doesn't make it impossible for the truly determinied, but the average student responds well to this position, and can use it to learn to find the right muscles so that eventually they can do it correctly without this "crutch".

Also, don't forget that the dance position itself is not symmetrical. So if you're trying to achieve a perfectly symmetrical position within your own body, the end result will be distortion.

Imagine three straws of equal length, connected by a rubber band running through them. Straw #1 represents the line from your left elbow point to your left shoulder, straw #2 represents the line across from left to right shoulder, and straw #3 represents the line from right shoulder to right elbow point. If you begin with all 3 straws forming a straight line across, with the outermost points fixed, then twist the center straw to one side or the other, it will result in a zig-zag shape. This is what happens to students in dance position. The zig zag shape is what gives the topline a broken appearance.

For ladies in closed dance position, typically it's the right shoulder that protrudes slightly forward -- or as some might prefer to describe it, the left side drops down and back (Ultimately, however, it's the same thing). This is not an accident. It's not that all females tend to be lopsided. The problem is that the dance position is offset, which means that the hands and elbows when in dance position are actually shifted to the right of the body. So when you're facing straight forward with your hands and elbows in this position, you're actually distorting your topline. The way to fix it? Rotate your sternum to the right. Now it's positioned directly between the elbow points.

If the dance position was such that we were standing directly in front of our partner, then it would be much easier to maintain a balanced topline. But the offset position necessitates some rotation of the torso in order to maintain the balance. Without it, your topline becomes distorted.

This is so much easier to demonstrate than to write about. But I hope what I've written makes sense.

Regards,
Jonathan

" How straight is the right arm. Is it whatever it takes to get a nice looking back. That is the question."

Pretty much depends only on where the man's left hand is...

Since there are few other constraints on the man's left hand position (degree of bend in his elbow) it makes sense for him to adjust it until the lady's arm is at whatever degree of bend the couple feels to be correct. For me as for most championship dancers, that would be with a graceful, obtuse bend in her elbow - and a much sharper, perhaps even acute bend in his.

It boils down to one thing. After a couple have set up their pose it is necessary to go behind them and make whatever adjustment is necessary for that particular couple. The roundness of both couples like having a hoop held at shoulder level as I saw in "Ballroom Bootcamp" on TV. Great idea probably from Russia.
At this point I would like to get to the five points of contact between the man and the lady. If you were taught as I was one of them is going to be wrong. One last thing. The man does not adjust. The lady adjusts to the frame of the man. International Style of Ballroom Dancing. If it were not so we would have the man present himself to the lady and after all that alter his shape. Why on earth would anyone present themselves and then alter. Sounds a bit senseless doesn't it. Happy Dancing

"The man does not adjust. The lady adjusts to the frame of the man."

Ouch! I sure I hope I never have to dance with you!

"If it were not so we would have the man present himself to the lady and after all that alter his shape."

Actually, we do. He presents some points of a pre-hold position, she walks in, and then they BOTH make adjustments to each other.

"Why on earth would anyone present themselves and then alter."

Because the pre-hold position cannot be the same as the hold position. With your partner in a different place (not yet in hold) the geometry must be different than with your partner in the usual place. Since some things have to change anyway, this is your opportunity to fine tune the position.

Let's not have any one-size-fits all presentations to imagined partners - you are going to have to make some adjustments for anyone you dance with. Now what should stay the same and what should adjust is a whole other question. but there will ALWAYS be adjustments to accomodate the particular partner. (And those from the elbow angle on to the fingertips are some of the most common and safest)

" So if someone were to say to me, "Keep your center toward your partner", I would ask them to clarify with a little more detail."

Indeed... as dancing is studied in more and more detail, it eventually becomes clear that each part of the body needs to be seperately treated with regard to three potential factors. Conceptually, one could make this decision for each cross section of the body from head to toe:

- alignement towards direction of movement
- alignment towards partner
- comparative alignment to body parts above and below.

If you look at the position at mid stride into step one of a top-quality natural turn for example, there are quite a buch of different alignments in use. Some body parts are quite square to the direction of movement. Others are turned almost sideways (feels like nearly backwards) to stay with the partner. Probably the arms are even turned sligly more than the shoulder/sternum.

But of course that is at a more advanced level - at the beginning we just worry about an initial orientation to the partner, and perhaps the proper orientation of the feet and leg swing when moving.

Anonymous. Go to the Learn the Dances on this site . Choose anyone you like. For a bigger picture click twice on the picture to bring it to full size. Then you tell me on the topline which part of the ladies right side is in contact with the man. Look at the about bust level.

"Anonymous. Go to the Learn the Dances on this site . Choose anyone you like. For a bigger picture click twice on the picture to bring it to full size. Then you tell me on the topline which part of the ladies right side is in contact with the man. Look at the about bust level."

Why? There is no mention in the post to which you respond of contact. Or any endorsement of the videos here either, for that matter.