Me and my wife are social dancers. We dance with a small distance between us. But that is mainly because of a 9 inch height difference. We do some moves like spin turns with contact. With a smaller height distance, I would dance in contact, because it normally is the optimum position for dancing well. We dance smooth mostly in outside position and open position.

Were we dance, almost all social dancers dance with some room between them, many with to much room between them.

Unless you have a major height difference, I would try to do what the teacher is suggesting.

Dennis,

LOL! I was composing my message as you were posting yours. Apparently, great minds think alike...

Hi Everyone,

In my humble opinion...successful body contact depends on whether the partners "match up" physically. If one partner is substantially taller or "heavier" than the other, movement with body contact can be restricted. Do your "body types" differ, Diver? Body contact is an advanced technique. Unfortunately, pronounced differences in height and weight play a crucial role in making this advanced technique "work" and the partnership move "as one."

Anymouse is obviuosly anonymous....and I have to say that I thought you to be more educated in the art of smooth/standard dancing than this.

Obviously the arms will work to lead a lady, and with the exception of the open-ness of Amer Smooth (as when I commented I was speaking of closed and prom position, not the open work that smooth incorporates) there should be body contact.

Standard and smooth are about the art of two dancers moving together across the floor as one...not the art of driving a car around a track. Have you ever been lead, doing the lady's part? If the answer is yes, you would know how uncomfortable this is!!

And as far as the top level pro's go, they STRIVE for contact in closed dance position!! Yes, there is some bumping even at the top levels, but that is not intentional, nor desired. And it is not a personal choice as to "I want to dance contact here, but not here" type of scenario.

For the people on here who posted about size restrictions and so on, I do agree! And like I also mentioned, I allow and teach newer social dancers to allow for room....not too much though.

With that being said, I can see where this topic is headed, and I will say that I will not post anymore on this subject. Have a great night everyone, including you anymouse....and a great weekend!

"with the exception of the open-ness of Amer Smooth (as when I commented I was speaking of closed and prom position, not the open work that smooth incorporates) there should be body contact."

Says who?

It is COMMMON to do, yes, but "should be" is a lot stronger than the worlds leading teachers would all characterize it. Some give it a lot of importance, for others it's more 'close and coordinated, sometimes touching sometimes not'

"And it is not a personal choice as to "I want to dance contact here, but not here" type of scenario."

So are you arguing that when Chris & Hazel loose contact, it was a rare accident? I don't think so - rather, it was a strategic decision to do certain things, which as a side effect made actually maintaining literall contact at all times impossible. To maintain contact, they would have had to sacrifice body alignment in some situations, which is precisly what those couples who do maintain constant contact end up doing.

The tradeoff is very much a personal, stylistic choice.


A perhaps more practical way of looking at it: If you approach achieving body contact as a stand-alone goal, you will almost certainly develop a number of extremely worrisome postural habits in order to achieve it when your overall dance skills are not yet at a point where you could accomplish incidental contact as a result of sound mechanics. Some teachers will promote it anyway with the idea of creating a competitive look early and cleaning it up later. Others prefer to teach proper posture and mechanics, and expect the couples to naturally get closer as the skills that could properly enable close coordintion mature. By the time they are "good" both camps will generally be quite close together, but:

- One will always have a little contact, probably even a little contact pressure. The other will usually be quite close, but not always actually touching in all situations.

- One will always be with their partner, but at times contort their body into unsound postures in order to maintain this. The other will tend to have sound body alignment and err in slight differences from their partner.

In smooth, it is the lady's job to connect to the man's right hand, not to his body. As he is the leader, he decides when to bring her into contact by the way he positions his hand.

Assuming his hand is held far enough away from his body that a connection to both his body and hand is not possible, she should be connected to his hand. This is how he can lead her in and out of contact as desired.

When dancing a transition from open to closed contact position, results will be unpredictable unless hand contact is made, first. So just as skilled followers know to connect to the leader's hand, skilled leaders know to wait until hand contact has been established before drawing the partner to body contact position. There is no specific minimum limit as to how much time needs to be spent between the establishment of the two contact points, (that depends on the skill of the dancers and the speed and complexity of the connection), all that's required is that they happen in the right order.

As with any principle of dancing, this is not without its exceptions. But again, as with any principle, one must learn the rule before he has the skill to take exception. You can tell in an instant by watching a couple taking an unconventional connection whether they have transcended the princple, or simply never learned it.

Regards,
Jonathan Atkinson
www.ballroomdancers.com

Thanks, Jonathan! That's very helpful info.

But I would say that, in regular social dancing (where, in my area at least, most dancers are bronze or silver level), especially with an unfamiliar partner, it's the lady, not the man, who should determine whether the couple dances in contact or not. In that case, it's more of a social/etiquette issue than a technical one. It's very uncomfortable to be more-or-less forced into contact with an unfamiliar partner, especially if he doesn't know what to do with it once he gets it!

"But I would say that, in regular social dancing (where, in my area at least, most dancers are bronze or silver level), especially with an unfamiliar partner, it's the lady, not the man, who should determine whether the couple dances in contact or not."

The two ideas are easily reconciled.

It's up the the leader to invite the lady all the way into contact, or to stop his invitation short of that.

The follower could if she wished decline to come closer than she's comfortable with (socially or posturally), and he should note and respect her response.

Regardless of role, you shouldn't be pulling someone in, and you shouldn't be thrusting your body at someone who is holding a little space in their frame.

I know nothing about Smooth except that an expert New Vogue Dancer won the American Smooth four years running, or was it five, before she with her partner retired undefeated.
I would think a lot of skill is required to come from an open hold into a closed hold or the other way around. I may be wrong so I will ask. In the normal closed position, is it more square, and that the lady is not as far to the mans right as it is in the International style. It just appears that way to me.

You must be talking about Toni Redpath, my American Smooth teacher. The principles of connecting I mentioned before were learned largely from her.

The smaller position you observe is related to social dancing, it's not an American thing. American style is often associated with social dancing, which might account for the confusion. But proper smooth technique in closed position is identical to standard. I would only diminish my position for social dancing, and I would do that in either smooth or standard.

Regards,
Jonathan