JONATHAN. going back to your writting on 12. 5. 07. In a 2/4 Tango is it necessary to wrestle with whether the quanities are cut in half or not considering that we have no idea untill the music is played whether it it is 2/4 or 4/4.
With four beats in either Tempo regardless of which is being played all I need to know is One will have a strong first beat, a weaker second, a strong third not as strong as the first, and a weaker fourth beat if this is 4/4. The dancer who's routines are composed this way does not have to change if he finds the music is not 4/4.
Anyway . Who choreographs in 2/4 any more. And if they did how would they handle the music if it was a 4/4. Personaly I think 2/4 is dead and buried and it is time the technique books were brought up to date.
Harry Smith- Hampshire is on record as saying that no dance has altered in the past few years as much as the International Tango has. And that it was time the dance societies came to grips with this with their technique books.

Most of the time I am absorbing information from here but this time I must share. I am a musician and I have played a dozen different arrangements of Cumparsita. Some were in two, some in four. It makes not one whit of difference in how the tune sounds (or how a dancer would interpret it). It might not even make much of a difference in how the leader counts it off. The difference between 2/4 and 4/4 matters only to the copiest, who burns more or less ink, and the musician, who reads a busier or more tidy ledger. You might want a 4/4 arrangement if your band is made up of early stage musicians - it is a little easier to interpret. That is all.

Molesaver. Have you ever heard Doris Day singing Hernandos Hideaway. Its very stop go isn' t it. 2/4 Tempo. How many Tangos do you know where a vocalist can sing in 2/4. If the music selected by the music presenter is played in 4/4 Time. It is a must that we dance 1 2 3 4. and not 3 4 1 2. If it is 2/4 Time 1 2 1 2 it doesnt matter. You can never dance 3 4 1 2 because 3 4 is never there it is always 1 2. With the Orchestras recording in 4/4 nowdays. you are getting to a stage that unless it is an old recording it will be in 4/4.
So , todays dancers treat all recording counting in 4/4 regardless of whether it is 4/4 or 2/4.
To further explain. Lets have a very simple basic step choreographed for 2/4 and danced to 4/4. Two Walks. Progressive Side Step. One Walk and a Link. The Link you will find is now on 3 4. We've only taken 8 steps and we are already out of rhythm with the music. Take the Progressive Side Step out and we are OK. Social dancers carry on as you usually do.
Those of you who have John Wood's tape, it might have gone right over your heads, but he does talk about dancing in rhythm in the Foxtrot. You can transfer that to both the Quickstep and the Tango, John added, unless you want to look like others around you dancing in time bit out of rhythm.

We social dancers can be every bit as sensitive to a musical interpretation of the dance, and of the proper rhythmic groupings of figures within bars (measures) of music - so no general dispensation there, or any ready acceptance of social dancing being in any degree inferior to dancesport.

It's worth remembering, in the debate, that the dance societies' technique books are supremely unconcerned as to whether particular amalgamations fit within a rigid beat/bar structure. If anything, the fact that often they do not, allows the musical dancer to execute the figures with a slightly different timing to reflect, and in response to, the music.

Art, not science!

CliveHarrison.Music for Ballroom Dancing is written in a certain way, whether it be Latin or Standard. After the four bar introduction there will be eight bars of music played before the next eight bars are played. On one disk there is 64 bars of music played not including the four bar introduction.
Answer this one. Waltz. A Spin Turn. Then 4 5 6 of a Reverse Turn. Followed by a Reverse Turn a Whisk and a Chasse. To start again what part of the next phrase will you be on. If you continue this group how long will it take to get back to the correct phrasing. What we have done here is to try to fit a seven bar routine into eight bars of music. Does it matter. Socially it doesn't. But don't try it in a competition.
Socially or not. Don' t try to dance a Samba out of phrase.

ALL ballroom music ?-- you have obviously not listened to Mambo/ salsa.
and some boleros and chas

( I,m not talking the " T for 2", masquerading as latin ).

I have a fairly fundamental objection to your rather dogmatic suggestion that "music for dancing" is arranged in anything like so structured a way.

It just isn't. It may be that music arrangements specifically chosen for dancesport have a predictable pattern of intro and phrasing: otherwise it would be very difficult for the contestants to have prepared any suitable amalgamations and routines in advance when they don't know what music will be played. But even in dancesport, it is rare to find music that has been specially written, or even arranged that way: it's just that the arrangements that fall into that convenient pattern are the ones tat are chosen for use.

"Music for dancing" is a very much wider collection of live music and recordings, spanning many decades, and dancers can, and will, adapt themselves to all sorts of music. Even in the field of "competition", look at the variety of music used in popular series such as DWTS & SCD. It is not uncommon to giggle at the choices, and marvel at the ingenuity of the choreography. The results are not always very successful, however.

Just about the only place that I would agree with your theory is in the peculiar world of sequence dancing. There you will find, almost invariably, a 4 bar intro and 16 bar sequences (very often 8 + 8). In any other context, a good dancer can dance to almost anything with something approaching strict tempo, and reasonable speed. A good leader with a musical ear will instinctively choose amalgamations that are going to work. Those less blessed can learn, to some extent, what will and won't fit, and a third category (who I accept are almost always social dancers), won't know or care what we are on about - but they're having a lovely time.

The other reason that I would resist your suggestion is to restate a point that I made a day or two ago, which was that the technique books are largely unconcerned as to what will fit where, and how a figure should fit in to the natural rhythm of the music. The concern to package everything up so that it fits a formula is, in the wider dance context, a paper tiger, although it suits the rather small world of dancesport (and dare I say, because many of the leaders actually couldn't adapt their routines to the musical requirements of the dance on the day - much as we social dancers have to adapt what we are doing, not just for the music, but for the couple in front of us who are making no progression, and the couple behind us, who are practising for a comp and whizzing around the floor as though it were empty).

CliveHarrison. You probably don't realize that you have more than likely been dancing in the Foxtrot an eight Bar routine to eight bars of music without knowing it. I refere to a Feather Step Reverse Turn Three Step Open Imputus Turn and a Reverse Weave. That is an eight bars routine to one phrase of eight bars of music. On a disk there will be 64 bars of music
( could be more )which is eight bar phrased which equals eight and is refered to as eight bar phrased.
If you go to shopping on this site. Then music store. Have a look at Album 9 and you will see Foxtrot beats per minute 116. To come in line with the rest of the world ,who deal in bars per minute , simply divide by four. Thats 29BPM.
I have before me a disk by Hisao Sudou . Among the different dances we have a Waltz " Sherezade " Listed is 30BPM and it also gives how long the track goes for.
In a competition the most time you will get on the floor is 1 min 30 sec before the music stops. Except at Blackpool the orchestra will most likely go for 2 min 30 sec or more.
By now you will realize that dance music is an orderly thing. Just any old disk wont do. It needs to be a certain amount of bars or beats per minute and has to be eight bar phrased.
Which means any music can be played and I know my routines will fit that music.
Can you imagine what it would be like if a disk was played where the phrasing varied from 5 to 7 then 8. and with a 3 bar introduction.
All of the above you can apply to Latin as well.
Dancing is an art. The music danced to is a Science. Very orderly.

"With four beats in either Tempo regardless of which is being played all I need to know is One will have a strong first beat, a weaker second, a strong third not as strong as the first, and a weaker fourth beat if this is 4/4. The dancer who's routines are composed this way does not have to change if he finds the music is not 4/4."

This same pattern of stresses will occur regardless if the notation is 2/4 or 4/4, because it is a natural property of the MUSIC and not of the notation system.

No. There is no weaker third beat in "proper" 2/4 tango music. There is just STRONG weak STRONG weak. 2/4 and 4/4 cannot be reconciled if you are going to change your choreography to suit the distinctive, but uncharacteristic, rhythm of 4/4 music in tango.

We can at least agree that it's got nothing to do with notation, and everything to do with the music.