CliveHarrison. My teachers who are ranked top twenty in the world treat all Tangos as 4/4. If they can do it so can I.
But for those who wonder how it was in the beginning Page 228 Alex Moore. Time 2/4. Two beats in a bar. Both the 1st and 2nd beats are accentuated. If you are passing an examination this is the answere you must give untill the technique book is brought up to date.

I don't care if your teacher is the current world champion, and married to the Queen of Sheba, I still know that the rhythmic patterns of 2/4 & 4/4 are not interchangeable; that the technique books (all of them) consider both of the only two beats in the bar to be equally stressed (which is a musical nonsense); and that the fashion is to dance tango to 4/4 music.

Have a good Christmas (everyone).

Serendipidy,

My teacher was ranked #2 in the world. I win.



Jonathan

CliveHarrison. Reading your thread brought to mind a couple of things. Where I live very rarely would you see a competition dancer at a Social Dance.
We have adequate training nights in our three styles of dancing and the Competition and the Social don't mix. At a Social Dance it would be near impossible to do any of the dances in the Standard style without stop starting. And any couple who as you say whizzing around the floor would just make a nuisance of themself.
Latin is different. At a Social type dance the steps , use of the hips, and the content need not be modified. Even then it would only be an accident for a Latin couple to even be there. There are enough other places who cater for them and the Standard Dancers.

Firmly tongue-in-cheek, I would say that if a competitive couple found it impossible to do any of the standard dances at a social dance, then they have not actually learned to dance, but merely to repeat sequences of steps which they have practised on an empty floor. For me, that isn't dancing, it is indulging in the luxury of being able to present your most advanced technique, or most advanced figures (and preferably both), without the inconveniences and limitations of being one of a hundred dancers on a busy floor.

Dancing is about leading and following, floorcraft, and the pleasure of one's partner's company. It is also about technique, expression and the appropriate selection of figures (but choreography is really limited to the demonstration/competition scene). Dancesport uses a sub-set of those skills, with some of them developed more highly, but at the expense of others. I would say (and still firmly tongue-in-cheek) that the "compleat" dancer would be as comfortable on a social floor as anywhere else, and if they really did have to keep stopping and starting, then they really should have stayed at home, and had a night in to re-read Alex Moore.

At our social dancing club, one couple regularly attend who are, principally, competitive dancers. They also happen to be very good (and the two are not the same thing at all). On a busy floor, they enjoy the quite different challenge of dancing within the limitations of those figures that can be executed in the available space, without undue inconvenience to themselves or to anyone else, and they will also regularly partner other, less experienced dancers too. They usually confine themselves to basic figures, executed with the sort of style and expression which means that they can be spotted from the other side of a busy floor instantly: everyone's eyes are drawn to them, because their dancing is so attractive. Nothing stops ANY social dancer from doing that!

The two groups are, in reality, chalk and cheese. Most often, the social dancers are content with a very modest standard, and being content, they are just enjoying themselves; while the competitors are striving for improvement, and pushing the boundaries of their own dancing all the time. Mostly they fail: only one couple win each comp., and lots of dancers are eliminated in the first round.

There is always enough room to "perform" a stylish closed change, natural turn, closed change, reverse turn, whisk and chasse routine in standard waltz on a busy floor, and anyone who couldn't do it is kidding themselves that they are a dancer - even if they have a shelf full of trophies and are being coached by someone who could!

As for the non-travelling Latin dances - things are much more even as between the two styles, which are more or less interchangeable between the competition and social dance floor. Probably the only adjustment needed is for arm extensions to be predominantly upward socially, rather than outward (we don't want to knock anyone's teeth out), and then everything is fine. Samba is not usually so popular on the social floor, so there is usually more room to move, but we might have to be ready to make adjustments, but nothing major; and of course, paso doble is hardly danced socially at all, needing as it does, the choreographed approach to the telling of its story.

Clive. Only a complete idiot would try to dance either a Waltz Tango Foxtrot or a Quickstep as it should be danced on a crowded floor. The V. Waltz maybe and thats only because the figures used are limited. I can just imagine half a dozen comp dancers going flat out at a Social Dance. They would be asked not to come again.

"As it should be danced"? And how's that , then?

A good dancer has good floorcraft, and will adapt to the conditions on the floor. The sight of half a dozen dancers, dancing "flat out" (assuming that to be the only speed at which they have learned to "dance") would no doubt be amusing, and I agree, they wouldn't be asked back.

Just as a point of interest-- back in the 40s and 50s, many schools in the UK , would not allow comp. dancers to their socials-- it started to affect attendance when the comp. dancers were present .
Jive had the same effect in many Public B/Rooms-- i think it was the Palais, that roped off a section for those that wanted to dance Jive ( to q/step music no less ! )

Geoffrey Hearn (A Technique of Advanced Standard Ballroom Figures) is interesting on floorcraft " ... the ability to maintain the beauty of musicality, movement and shape throughout their performance. ... a combination of being able to change the routine of figures to suit the size of room and also to avoid the other couples on the floor. Unfortunately as our dancing has become more powerful, and indeed with some couples, ill mannered and aggresive, Floorcraft has deteriorated."

He concludes that "it is part of the dance teacher's responsibility to train couples to understand Floorcraft and the requirements expected of them when dancing in a crowded room."

Now, social dancers can be every bit as neglectful of good floorcraft as anyone else, (and as often through ignorance rather than rudeness) but it just isn't appropriate for a competitive couple to dance as though they were at a practise session on a busy floor. It doesn't stop some of them doing it though, and I suspect that it is frequently the product of their (lack of) training.

Chalk and cheese - and probably better kept apart. But the highest potential in dancing is to be found in the social sphere, IMHO, because it is only there that the full range of dance skills can be brought to bear on the dance.

CliveHarrison. A different country or even a different state = a different mentality. As I said before where I live a competition dancer would not attend a Social Dance they would not use a Social evening as a practise session. And that's how it should be.
Anybody who attends a competition will know that even with only 12 couples on the floor how easy it it is to get in each others way. Remembering that these are competition dancers who will dance into the corners and not decide to cut across the floor from side one to side three without using side two. This usually happens in the Quickstep with the untrained dancers.
A training session here would consist of Two of each Standard Dances. Then a further one of each to end the Modern Section. The same then in Latin. Then Australiian New Vogue. The cost in this place is $7.50 per person. Anybody from any other school is wellcome. Which takes me back to my first point and that is who would want to go to a Social dance. It would serve no purpose.