Getting back to the AM type dance institutes. Hasn't it become a way of life today to extract as much out of a customer that we possibly can. The studios are only doing what if you are a car salesperson is doing. To illistrate the point. If a car salesperson was to sell a little old lady who goes shopping once a week a Le Mans Ferrari they would probably get salesperson of the month. Honesty is a thing of the past unfortunately....What does your employer sell or deal in.

Are we confusing a service with a product?
Say the grandchildren decide the car that grandma bought was a mistake. The car can be returned within a period of time for a full refund. Even after a period of time the car still has value.

Selling someone a service beyond their limits or means has no value.
If the customer decides they cannot handle the service there is usually no recourse short of total loss on the part of the customer and a massive gain on the part of the provider.

When the full word is spread on the grandma situation, the long term gain for the salesman, dealer and maybe even for the car maker may suffer. Do we want that hair on the dog stigma for dancing? I think not. It's hard to overcome.

I agree society has evolved and the norm has skewed over the years. Even though it would be impossible to retain student on a handshake, I like to think I am above filling my pockets by providing a service, that I know in advance, will reap no gains. On the other side, I also realize there is no way I can determine the value a person places on self-satisfaction, or just the sheer thrill of achieving something. For this reason, I leave the final decision with the student.

"Even though it would be impossible to retain student on a handshake,"

I'm very sorry you don't have any students with a strong interest.

I've never met a dancer who even expected a handshake. Mutual respect gets the job done just fine. Since the interaction between serious teachers and students tends to be paid one lesson at a time except in cases with a lot of personal history prompting bulk payments for convenience, the amount of money that can be lost if someone goes back on their word is small enough that it's worth taking the risk.

These problems really only come about as a result of one or more of three danger factors:

1) Trying to market dancing to a segment of the population that isn't all that interested, and depending on being able to sell it to them in order to eat.

2) Pay in advance packages - this is nothing but a recipe for trouble!

3) Pro/am competition fees so steep that even wealthy clients have to pay over time. Again, a recipe for trouble! If you want to charge that much and you are worth it, charge more for your pro/am lessons to spread out the payment and do the competitions for less.

4) Letting pushy students talk you into business arrangements that are bad for you or bad for them (in the end it's the same thing). If a student makes a counter offer to your usual, say that you will sleep on it and get back to them. Then go discuss it with your mentor, partner, or peers. If the deal is a poor one for either party, in the long run this will fatally poison your relationship - for example as soon as the student's peers or the teacher's peers point out that they got taken for a ride.

On number 4) getting into an arrangement that is bad for you or them... What is the feeling of those of you on the on the following.
Is it ethical for an instructor with limited ballroom experience and with no experience or knowledge of a selected dance discipline, to offer to "learn" the dance with her/his student AND charge the student full price for her/his time on the lesson that they, collectively, are learning together from another instructor. Plus, have the student pay the other instructor's price for the lesson as well. Shouldn't she/he modify their pricing or just be grateful someone else is paying for the lesson so they can expand their dance knowledge?

Read the Arthur Murray posts. AM Management makes sure the teachers get away with it because they gain to benefit???

Well, all I can say is I used to go to an FA studio. And yes, I would take coaching lessons which were really $$.

I finally realized that one of the instructors I had taken the coaching lesson with, had, in fact, been dancing for about 4 years and had no previous dance background. I was irritated to learn that I had paid for him to learn as well (and his salary for that hour of course!). I think this is unfair. I would have much rather have had the lesson ONLY with the coach.

But then again this is one of the chain schools' slimy practices.

My independent studio pro doesn't charge at all for his time when we take a coaching from another instructor (and we take coachings from national champions) even though he has been dancing for 17 years and knows the dances we take coachings in very well.

His take on it is that he is learning more about how to teach dance when we take coachings, so he sees it as part of his professional education. For him to get that for free is good enough for him.

You just gotta find the right pro!

I've been around the dance biz for several years, know several studios, studio owners and instructors. The chain studios are good for getting people interested in dance, but the sales tactics are usually horrendous.

I suggest if you enjoy ballroom dancing and you want to get good at it, spend you money wisely and find an independent professional teacher. One who has or is competing (they have taken the necessary training on their own dime).

I have seen students who have spent years and a fortune on dancing who are happy to be shuffled around the floor and listen to a teacher gossip and talk about themselves at $80-90 an hour. That's fine if they can afford it.

I have also seen students in their 70s and 80s who had gotten so far in debt with their lessons, they had to work 2 jobs to keep a roof over their heads.

I haven't been, but some good dance-friends of mine are stuck at a studio who's robbing them blind, and they don't even realize it.

This is the same "put your students in an uncontested heat" studio, and also one who recruits newbs to be teachers/six-week wonders, and they have some very "chain-studio" policies for an indie. No frat, no compete agreements, things like that, their students act whipped and scared to associate with us in any other medium but their own home turf, we've been "politely disinvited" to their parties because they're scared their students might look up and see something they haven't learned yet, etc.

We feel bad for them, but if they like that flavor of Kool-Aid... meh, more room for us.

Be very careful when dealing with studio instructors/managers. Yes, it is a business and it's not so much about you but the amount of "units" or dance packages they can sell you. I've seen every approach, some quite innocuous, some rather nasty. It depends on the individual(s). This may come from your teacher during a debrief session or you could get "tag teamed" using pressure tactics to sign a stiff contract designed by your instructor with a package they think is in your best interest. This could consist of 30 units or more with a large price tag attached. Read the terms and conditions carefully, do not sign anything until you are comfortable with the terms. If they persist, walk out. Not all schools are like this.