Anymouse. If you have all the flight you need and all the rise and fall that you need and all the swing and sway that you need, why have the knees further apart than is natural?

"Anymouse. If you have all the flight you need and all the rise and fall that you need and all the swing and sway that you need, why have the knees further apart than is natural?"

You shouldn't. As I previously said:

"One important concept is that the knees will tend towards each other, even when they are apart due to leg division they will still want to be as close together as possible."

Two reasons why the knees might be too far apart:

1) Lack of proper usage habits, especially lack of the bias of the knee towards the inside edge of it's foot. You are supposed to be slightly knock-kneed in this way, but some will still have the opposite, bow-legged habit which their training has not yet corrected.

2) Attempting to achieve travel by leg division alone (reaching the feet), without the corresponding sending of the body away from the standing foot. It is true that the Italians for example use more leg division than the English, but not amongst the better ones to the impractical degree exhibited by a lot of students who are still learning about consistency and proportion. Training today often consists of getting the raw athleticism first, and the refinement and proportion second.

Thank you all for your responses. I have watched the video, again (and again, and again...bought the DVDs, and again).

Discussions like this are great because I can see more once I understand what I'm looking for.

ericlund. Twenty two messages so far. So it must be of some interest.
I'll put this one on the table. Just Basic Waltz International Style. If you were to look at the charts in the technique book on a Closed Change starting on the man's RF you will see that the LF goes to the side from its position behind. What is being taught now is that the foot, thats the LF, comes into a neutral position under the body before it goes to the side on the count of one ( and). This allows another compression and a drive. So now we have two drives within the three beats of music. See Richard Gleave. Dance Vision 4. ( or any of the top teachers today ), where he complains that we often see only one drive on the first step. For those who are new to this we have three beats divided into six with most of the action on the ( and ) between the solid beats. I was once told that a step is just a step. It is on the spaces in between where we dance. That is any dance any style. Modern. Rumba. Old Time. Good Luck.

Serendipidy. I am confused,we have a drive from the left foot to put us on the right foot and then a drive from the RF to to put us on the LF,so what is so different than in the past. If you are talking about two drives from the same foot" some would say" you have a pull onto the foot on one and a push off the same foot on the and?

Dave. At the full extent of the stride the ball of the LF, which is the rear foot, and the heel of the RF which is the front foot will be touching the floor. Both knees should be straight. Lower the RF imediately so that the foot is flat on the floor. See Learning Centre Forward Walk on this site. With the body moving forward bring the left foot to a position under the body. Flex the right knee and drive onto step two. If this is the first three of a Natural Turn the LF moves to a position under the hip exactly as you would an ordinary Change Step. The action used remains constant throughout the dance which is the Modern Waltz.
If you want some practise do all Change Steps Forward RF bring LF under the body and then out to the side Close Right to left and lower. Repeat on the other foot for a further three beats . Then do exactly the same on the way back. Twelve beats of music all up. If you were to count how they do on my tape each three beats is divided into six beats with an action on every count. Thats right the foot closes on the count of two ( and )
( and ) being the closure. Good Luck.

"Dave. At the full extent of the stride the ball of the LF, which is the rear foot, and the heel of the RF which is the front foot will be touching the floor. Both knees should be straight."

Only if you haven't executed a modern championship scale lowering. If you have, you probably won't be able to actually get both knees straight at the same time. Run the math or check the videos - when your center gets that low, you simply can't move your body fast enough to cover the distance implied by the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by two straight legs. That's why today's competitor usually cannot get them both straight in a full action. But for more limited lowering, as used in a less athletic situation such as a demonstration or a social dance, or by competitors of the previous generation (or even comparably in the somewhat calmer flight of the English couples vs. the lower drive of their European competition), sure - then the hypotenuse of the triangle formed by two straight legs is a reasonably sized stride.

"The action used remains constant throughout the dance which is the Modern Waltz."

No, it must change drastically based on the situation of the dance, even for the same dancers executing the same figure. That's ultimately the problem active competitors run into with teaching exams: the exam requires a different type of dancing than a competition, and to do that it will require different details. You can't just put exam details on comeptition dancing where they are a misfit, you have to actually do exam dancing where the exam details are natural.

Before the knee bends it must be straightish, not rigid. If the knee is bent at the start as well as all the way through to the finish. It is not correct. I would hope it is not being taught that way. Do you teach that way. Was that in a professional examination. Go to the images on this site under Forward Walk. There are four still computer images. Also it is possible to have the images moving.I wouldn't want anyone just to read what I have suggested, Go and look for yourself
On a DVD. Look how the rear foot goes to the tip of the toe and we stay on the supporting foot longer before it becomes a toe. And at the extent of the stride the weight is between the heel of the front foot and the toe of the back foot. Just as it is written in the Technique books. Page 10. Don't try to do that with two bent knees. If you want a role model to copy see if you can find Timothy Howson in the final Foxtrot from Blackpool 2006. Another is google marcus hilton youtube. Have a look at the Foxtrot and the Waltz.
Ljin 800800 Enqiring about a Telemark For an Open Telemark. In the Foxtrot look at Marcus Hilton on bar 7. just after the Hover Cross.
Anonymous . When teaching stick to the correct technique as close as is possible. Do not try to write another book.
If anybody wishes to see , being danced, what was the forerunner to the Foxtrot in 1918. There is a ballroom scene in the film The Legend of Bagger Vance starring Will Smith and Matt Damon. You can get a look at two walks and a draw up of the feet and a step out.s s q q s The story is about Golf.

"If the knee is bent at the start as well as all the way through to the finish. It is not correct."

In championship scale dancing of the Italian school, we do not generally see both knees straight at the same time during the lowest stride of the cycle. That does not mean that they do not flex and extend, it simply means that during the lowest stride they are not both able to reach full straightness at the same time. The reason is that with the vertex that low, having both of them straight would put the feet impractically far apart. For a dancer who lower less - old school as in the book or English school or simply beginner - this is not a problem as the higher vertex of the legs means that having them both straight will not put the feet impractically far apart.

What part of that did you still fail to understand?

Maybe you should put on your shoes and actually try it: Stand in place and execute what you think a full lowering through the knees would be, as practiced by the more athletic, leg-oriented faction of the world final. Now without letting your center rise, execute the step 3 to step 1 transition with a stride large enough to get two straight legs. You must do this without rising, and you must land -softly- not heavily. Good luck - if you can pull this off, you are stronger than the dancers who actually are in the world final.

...but if you repeat it after lowering only half as much... well then, no problem to get two straight legs.

And that is why you see straight legs during the 3-to-1 stride on the elegantly floating couples, but not usually on the earthy, athletic ones.

I don't know about you but when I walk across the room or up the passage at the extent of the stride my knee is straight. Dancing is just an exaggerated walk. If you take a stroll in your local shopping centre and and walked with bent knees people might be forgiven for thinking Groucho Marx was back with us. For those of us not familiar with Groucho he was part of the Marx Brothers and had this very bent knees crouch when he walked never getting his knees straight.
Even though hopefully we all walk naturall without instruction it is worth going through the action of a walk. As the moving foot comes under the body it is the ball of the foot that is in contact with the floor. As the foot passes the toe of the standing foot it becomes a heel. At the same time the heel of the standing foot begins to raise from the floor. At the extent of the stride ( this is now dancing ) the ball of the LF and the heel of the RF will be touching the floor. If anybody would like to see this in the technique book they will find it on page 10. If anybody has a technique book which says different to the above feel free to inform me of its location.
Anonymous Your paragraph four. Are you forgetting that as the moving foot passes the standing foot the heel of the standing foot leaves the floor.Repeating from above page 10. " At the full extent of the stride the weight is divided for a moment between the heel of the front foot and the ball of the rear foot. The weight is taken immediatelly onto the front foot as this foot becomes flat ". Now the knee goes from straight to bent.
" The knee is never rigid. They are most relaxed as the moving foot passes the standing foot".
Depended on the standard of dancing the more the knee bends the more power is being stored for that push onto a straightish knee at the extent of the stride. Its all in the books