And that is what I have been saying all along. I left the best till last. That second step does not travell once it is in position. It doesn't move in any direction It only rotates over its own axis.As you are aware on the chart there are ten squares, at the side is an arrow pionting to the LOD. If all of those first and second foot positions were set out those two squares diagonaly opposite each other would be completely full of foot positions. All you have to do is to step to a position where without moving the foot off its spot you will finish backing the LOD. If you look at the ladies chart you will see where the man must step if they are to maintain their posture which is the same as when they started
At this point I suppose I should mention that my parents used to have lessons with Alex Moore who did compile the book.Alex was fanatical about the feet brushing as they past each other. With the patient leather shoes in those days, my father used to put a smear of Vasaline to the rear of the shoe otherwise they could stick and literally impede your movement as well as making an awfull squeaking sound.
Still no comments on the videos on youtube. I think now I can safely say that you believe they are correct.

"I really thought you said places his foot initially backing DW. Hold on. That's what you did say. Now I am confused."

Yes you are! You are confusing step direction with alignment of the feet.

Take a simple example with no turn to cause confusion.
Begin facing centre/backing wall. Step to the side RF, this will be moving along LOD and the direction is 'side'. The foot and body will still be facing centre/backing wall, so the alignment will be facing centre or backing wall. Which one is used normally depends on the direction of the following step.

So, step 2 is a side step, moving DC, with the foot alignment when placed backing DW.


Regards the videos, nobody has ever said they were wrong. Did you really expect everyone to bother to say "Yes the 10x world champions are dancing correctly"?

Now you have me totally confused Serendipidy. I thought it was you who originally argued that step 2 was a progressive step along the LOD and not a side step?

Nobody is saying that any of the demonstration videos is wrong. I do not think anyone is saying the books are wrong. The books do need interpretation by a qualified teacher or coach which is why they are not intended as a 'teach yourself to dance' guide.

The book charts describe a snapshot in time and were originally prepared without the luxury of frame by frame video analysis. All dancing is continuous movement, the foxtrot in particular, which makes them difficult to describe fully by a sequence of snapshots.

If you are able to freeze the demonstration video, there will be a point where the man's weight is transferred towards his RF as it is directly to the side of his LF, and he will be backing DW. That is the snapshot that the chart describes as step 2.

Shortly after that, due to continued rotation, the LF can make a step backwards down the LOD. If the snapshot is taken at that point then the alignment would be (almost) backing LOD and the foot position would be RF side and slightly back or even diagonally back.

If you cannot freeze the video, and that is why I say YouTube is not an ideal medium, then dance the figure and freeze your own action to check.

"Now you have me totally confused Serendipidy. I thought it was you who originally argued that step 2 was a progressive step along the LOD and not a side step?"

Leaving aside the question of who might have said what, or what the step should be in this case, there's no conflict in a progressive step down the LOD also being a side step. One description of direction is relative to the room, the other is relative to the feet.

That said, it should be progressive, but in customary orientation probably somewhat towards DC than purely down LOD. On average and at the instant of description it's a side step, but it begins as a forwards one and ends as if it had been a backwards one. In terms of balancin progression with thd partner, it's key to realize that the axis of the heel turn partner's turn progresses somewhat during the course of that turn, and that the outside partner is passing from 'upstream' to 'downstream' of the inside one which will require a substantial difference in travel.

Anonymous. The step is across the LOD. Quote RF to the side across the LOD page 175. It is impossible to make anything from that other than what is written. I have written many times that that step is a step to the side. This you will see if you watch our better dancers in action. Or go to the examples I have itemized. I was guilty at one time of not taking that step two wide enough.
I think where the mistake is made reading from the charts is. If you divided that 3/8 of a turn into a million parts. You would pass through all of them. You would not stop anywhere in between. The chart does look to the beginner as if there is a stop about half way. What must be done is not to ignore the description of the steps as they are written. But to combine them with the foot positions. And then go to the ladies steps and the description. Do you see a stop halfway. Of course you don't.
If you want to continue with this. You must be balanced on that right foot. If it is taken backwards as a progression you wont be as balanced as you should be and you will catch your weight with the LF. The LF is a Backward Step in all its glory from a balanced position, and not a prop. I leave it to the jury to consider their verdict.

Serendipity, despite your tone of urgent correction, none of the technical points in your most recent message are actually under dispute. Instead, they are all things that others have already said here multiple times over the past few days - that the step is to DC (and thus across LOD), that it's a side step, and that the rotation of the foot continues from the given alignment of backing DW on through to backing LOD without pause.

Anonymous. So we all agree that we go all the way around in one go, crossing the LOD to a position which is backing the LOD. Then we take a Backwards Walk on the LF and lower and compress ready for step four.

No we don't all agree
"""Quote RF to the side across the LOD page 175.""""
THe alignment is the foot alignment, not the body alignment, nor the direction of travel of your centre.
Here's a simple question. When you have your right foot placed on the reverse turn, and your weight is roughly evenly distributed between the feet (i know, it doesn't stop there, but this instant would be before your left foot passes the right), what would be your body alignment? Backing LOD?

"No we don't all agree
"""Quote RF to the side across the LOD page 175.""""

THe alignment is the foot alignment, not the body alignment, nor the direction of travel of your centre."

So where is the disagreement?

Several days ago Serendipity was misreading people's quoting of the book alignment as if it were the direction movement rather than the foot alignment and taking people to task for allegedly wanting to move to DW, but he seems to have finally realized that this was his misunderstanding and not what anyone had actually advocated.

I don't particularly like the way he put his latest description, but I don't see any real conflict between the substance of Serendipity's latest, the book description, and yours.

"Here's a simple question. When you have your right foot placed on the reverse turn, and your weight is roughly evenly distributed between the feet (i know, it doesn't stop there, but this instant would be before your left foot passes the right), what would be your body alignment? Backing LOD?"

The foot alignment which is what is given in the books is backing DW. The body alignment is a somewhat different question. I've posted in the past about how most leading teachers request you to execute reverse turning movements, but it's not something that seems to be understandable by those who haven't worked with them in person.

In more general terms, the "always have a side left to swing" principle (aka windup) suggests that the body itself is unlikely to catch up to the feet and be squarely backing the LOD until midway into the CBM of the feather finish.

Just a correction here. The 6th step of a Reverse Turn Foxtrot is in CBMP not CBM. If you think that step four is only just straightening up from an underturned Reverse. Think again.
Quote. Step three is continue to turn on RF and step LF back. Step four. RF back down the LOD.
Why would the writter of the technique book put at the beginning. Step across the LOD and a few lines below contradict himself.
Forget that and tell me does Marcus Hilton and Jonathan appear to you to pause when their back is backing diagnal to wall. Yes or No will do.
Another mistake is when you said The foot aligment is given in the book as backing diagonal to the wall. Does it say that ??.
Another mistake is not getting the body weight onto that RF. This is not a Waltz where the foot is placed to the side and then the weight of the body is moved onto it with Swing. In the Foxtrot the weight is passed over imediately to the RF.
Paragraph 4. You must be getting me confused with somebody else.
Now understand this. In the case of a Walk Forward or Backwards. The time value of the step is not complete untill the moving foot is drawn up to the standing foot. So step two is not finished untill the left foot is drawn up to the RF. You would be in a big underturned Reverse if you completed step two backing diagonal to the wall.
General Notes. Do not let the third step swing outwards. Keep it well behind the body. Page 175.
I think we can put this one to bed now. All you need to do is go and look, and if your not too far gone... Copy