Social Dancer. There is still a movement of the ladies hip during the beat of one towards the man. That will take care of the 1/8 of a turn to the left. Where did you get turning too early from. How much later than beat one can it be. Please explain.

I do not follow your reasoning of the lady's hip movement towards the man on beat 1. She has just taken a forward walk , RF, on 4-1. She will settle into the hip, but it is no different from any other forward walk so should not produce any turn. At this stage the lady will still be gazing with loving eyes into the man's eyes.

Only on beat 2 does she start to turn away from him. A slight turn is all that is needed because the forward walk on beat 2 will have her toe turned out so if she follows her toe when taking the next step she will have achieved the 1/8 turn.

The latest edition of the ISTD Rumba manual that I have (1998) gives a study alignment for the hockey stick (lady) as:
1 backing LOD
2,3 against LOD
4 against LOD to end DW against LOD
5 DW against LOD to end backing DW against LOD
6 DW against LOD

I don't have the ISTD book just Walter Laird's. First there are no alignments in the Rumba, just amounts of turn.
To make it easier we can for the man be facing the centre. The lady is in the Fan Position an imaginary line projected forward through the ladies right foot would pass the man approximately 15 cms in front of his body. ( Picture on page 14 ).After the draw up for the lady and the forward Walk on the LF and the RF. on which there is a settling of the hip on beat one, there is 1/8 of a turn to the left. The left foot on beat two will step on what would be diagnal to the centre with the LOD. Her back will be towards her partner and her right hand will be over her left shoulder. On step five which is beat three she will turn 3/8ths to her left and then we have the Backward Walk. You both should be on the diagnal to the centre. The lady can then make another 1/8 of a turn to the left depending what is going to be done next.
Big mistake for the lady going to the Fan Position after the Cross Body Lead is to take a side step instead of a Backward Walk on 4 1. If that happens and the man decides to do a couple of Walks instead of the Hockey Stick, the lady would be going in the wrong direction completely.
Back to the Hockey Stick. If the new ISTD is anything like the former. In it it gives on step four commence to turn to the left. Doesn't give the amount of turn. In fact it is a bit light on amounts of turn. I think you will find that the majority of teachers use Walter Laird'
Does it really say the lady starts backing LOD. Even the old book doesn't say that. I used to call the old book The Red Book of Horrors for a variety of reasons.
I've had a look at Donnie Burns and Gaynor's tape doing a Hockey Stick apart from the fact that he has a much longer arm, he being a lot taller than me for instance. But that right arm of the lady is completely over her left shoulder and her back is towards him. For the shorter guys it is recomended that he does not do a Back Basic but brings the foot alongside as the lady marches onwards.I know a few who at that point will let go and let the lady do it solo which includes myself. Even more so in the Cha.
Just to repeat Walter Laird's book. For the lady it says on step 4. LF fwd. B flat. Forward Walk Turning. 3/8 to the left. That is reading across the page for step four.

"First there are no alignments in the Rumba, just amounts of turn."

Agreed, but as a reference to allow for better discussion and understanding the ISTD manual uses what it calls a study alignment, in this case with the man facing wall.

"If the new ISTD is anything like the former. In it it gives on step four commence to turn to the left. "

Yes, commence to turn on step 4, not on step 3 which you implied in your earlier posts. The later ISTD book description makes the step more like a forward walk turning which was the original question in this thread.

Officially only IDTA teachers use Wally's book. Most of the other societies use the ISTD book as reference. Of course there is nothing to stop a good teacher using both, or any other reputable source of information, except in their own associate exams.

No problem with quoting Wally again except your quote should refer to step 5 not 4.

SocialDancer. I think you might have miss read. The turn mentioned is on step 5 which is beat 3 and is counted as 3 and . I have just looked at a tape of Espen Salsberg giving a lecture in which he does a Hockey Stick Turn as part of a routine. It is exactly as I first wrote. On beats 4 1 which is step 3, at the end her body is at an angle to her partner by turning 1/8th of a turn to her left.
Once again on the first beat 3 which is step 2 there is no turn. The 1/8 turn is on beats 4 1 ( beat one as we know is a movement of the hip only ) The next turn for the lady is on beat 3 which is step 5 and has 3/8 of a turn to completed. Walter Laird's book.
Just as a matter of interest I have also just watch six of our top Latin Professional as part of their demonstrations in the Rumba. Not one of them did a Hockey Stick Turn. They went to the Fan Position many times but not one Hockey Stick. I wonder why I bother in that case.

Where do you think I have mis-read?

Walter Laird:
Step 3, count 4.1, RF fwd, turn nil
Step 4, count 2, LF fwd, turn 1/8 L
Step 5, count 3, RF back and slightly side, turn 3/8 L

Virtually the same description, featuring step 3 - no turn, step 4 - turn 1/8 L, is used by ISTD Revised Technique, current ISTD manual, current UKA manual by Ken Akrill, and dear old Victor Silvester and Len Scrivenor.

SocialDancer. This is the technical point in Laird's book which was in print in 1961 . It says step 3 is a Forward Walk and step 4 is a Forward Walk with 1/8 of a turn. The question is the turn on step 4 into it or at the end. What are the Professional dancers doing. Do they actually turn at the end of step 3 which is the beginning of step 4 or do they turn at the end of step 4. The ISTD wasn't published untill 1971. In the ISTD book the turn is 5/8 of a turn over 4 to 6 which seems to be a please yourself job. Can you on step 4 by stepping LF forward and at the same time commence to turn to the left without turning at the beginning. For me the turn takes place directly after the 3 step which has a count of 4 1.
What also needs to be looked at is the man's step 4 which has an 1/8 of a turn to the right.
Maybe this is why the top dancers don't do Hockey Sticks.

Len Scrivener's book was published in 1951, ten years before Wally's, but that is irrelevant.

In your first post you said "there is a hip movement to the ladies right on 4 1 which will without trying, turn her an 1/8 of a turn to her left". That makes the turn part of step 3 not step 4.

You later say "Where did you get turning too early from. How much later than beat one can it be." Try beat 2.

In your latest post, "Do they actually turn at the end of step 3 which is the beginning of step 4 or do they turn at the end of step 4." The end of step 3 comes before the beginning of step 4 although admittedly not by much, but I see you now say that the turn happens directly after step 3. This would tie in with the man's turn which is also on step 4 and not pre-empted by turn at the end of step 3.

The original question was why was the lady's 1/8 turn not described as a fwd walk turning. As I said earlier, the most recent manuals don't seem to use the term, but the ISTD (1998) using their study alignment as reference make the turn later in step 4, very similar to a fwd walk turning,
"4 (LF fwd) against LOD to end DW against LOD"

And yes, I do see it danced and demonstrated that way.

SocialDancer. The more you go into this the more intersting it becomes. If step 4 is straight down the floor for the lady. Step four for the man is going in the opposite direction. On that step the man has an 1/8 of a turn to his right, the turn would have to be at the beginning of the step. It is a Back Basic. All of this makes for a very untidy movement unless the man is tall and with a very long arm. Don't you think.
I have been searching for a tape I have somewhere by Alen and Hazel Fletcher. On it they show among other things the Hockey Stick in detail. There's is the one I always followed.
I don't want to appear contradictory but there is only one book printed June 85 that has Len Scrivener's name on it.It was compiled from his notes after he passed away called, Just One Idea.. Terence or luv2dance might be able to shed some light on whether Len was into the Latin style.

The lady's step 4 starts down the floor then turns to DW against, by which time the man has stepped back DC, so she is straight in front of him. She then continues moving DW against, first forward then backward as the man follows her. It should not be a problem as they are not miles apart, closer than when in fan position.

I stand corrected on Len Scrivener. I must admit I was surprised when I found his name on the cover when looking through my library for descriptions of the hockey stick, and it was rather late at night. In fact the book "The Complete Ballroom Dancer" was edited by Len, who also wrote the ballroom section. The Latin section was prepared by "Pierre" who is credited with introducing the Cuban style of Rumba, and the 2,3,4-1 count into the UK.