"The description of the Spot Turn to the right is from Wally Lairds book page 136"

I suspect Smoothgeezer is confused by your inclusion of the amount of turn, "One complete turn to Right", as though it applied to the first step. In fact, although most turn happens on step 1, complete turn takes place over the full figure as indicated by that cell of the table extending over all steps.

Smoothgeezer's turn is only slightly different from Laird's description. He is starting to turn his body as the first step is taken instead of delaying the turn until the foot has landed. The foot is placed in the same physical position and by the end of the first step Smoothgeezer will be in the same position as Laird.

The ISTD now groups spot turns and switch turns together and is quite vague about the differences. My understanding is that the spot turn requires step 1 to be taken across the body. If the step is take forward, with or without turn on the standing foot, the figure is called a switch turn.

Serendipity... I think we are both suffering from a very common problem, a failure to clearly translate actions into words. We are not disagreeing on actions, only on the descriptions of the actions. Fortunately there are video clips on this website that are correct (titled spot turns and switch turns). Those show the same as what I dance, and tried to describe in my quickly composed description, which I admit could stand a lot of improvement, since it doesn't clearly communicate the actions, or even describe all of them.

SocialDancer did better. His post was at least clear and accurate (almost) except he was also a little confused about what I was doing (due to my poor description). Actually my turn was the same as the video clip. Body turns right, same time as left foot starts to move, and as the left foot passes the right, the right foot (pivots, swivels, turns, choose the one you like, to the right), then the left foot is placed, total 1/4 turn. And yes, SocialDancer, the Laird specification of one complete turn on step one was obviously not correct. I do one thing differently from the video clip. I don't pick my feet up off the floor as high as he does.

Rather than try and beat the descriptions to death trying to correct them, I would suggest referring back to the video clips. I don't think I want to go back and fix mine plus add everything I left out when there is a video clip that shows it correctly.

Now that I read it again, I may have given SocialDancer too much credit for being accurate. Body turn doesn't start at the end of step 1. It starts in the beginning of step 1 (the 1/4 turn), but there is also a turn at the end of 1 (which I forgot to include in my last post).

That brings up a question. In the Latin dances, many actions call for a step then turn, as opposed to the smooth dances where most turns are done between steps. When describing these step-turn actions, do you list that step-turn as part of a single step, or should the turn part be attributed to the next step because it occurs after the foot hits the floor? I usually include the step-turn action within the same step. Correct or no?

[SmoothGeezer]"Body turn doesn't start at the end of step 1. It starts in the beginning of step 1 (the 1/4 turn)"

That was the difference I was making between your turn and Serendipidy's and IMHO is the difference between a switch turn and a spot turn. In a spot turn the first step is taken across the body which remains, as far as possible, facing the partner until the foot lands. Making a 1/4 turn at the start of the step means that the step is forward and the figure becomes a switch turn.

The footwork variations of two steps or step and replace are options in both figures.

The step-turn action is the reason Wally Laird uses the term forward walk turning. I think it proved too difficult to write a definition which covered every situation so later manuals seem to cover the point in detailed comments.

Some figures lend themselves to musical interpretation or are in constant 'development'. An example is the timing of the lady's twist in an open hip twist which often appears on beat 1 or 2 or anywhere in between. A turn on beat 1 would make the step a fwd walk turning, but not if the turn is made on beat 2. The book says the turn is commenced towards the end of the previous step, so which description fits?

SmoothGeezer.First .I quote and if possible I give the description and the page number or where the description of the step came from whether it be from a DVD a video
or a book. A Spot Turn in the Rumba as we all know is Ball Flat. We can only do one thing at a time. So with the beat does the ball arrive on the beat, or does the heel lower on the beat. Think about it. Are you lowering on the beat or are you lowering behind the beat. In a Samba because of the speed of the music it is criticle that we know what we are supposed to be doing.
Back to the Spot Turn in the Rumba. Give the first step a count of two and. Make sure that you do a one complete turn on step one. Wally Laird pages 28 and 29. Your body will be facing partner at the start as well as the end of step one. Forget about your feet for a while and get that body around. All Spot Turns are with the whole of the foot flat on the floor. Laird is absolutely correct when he says one complete turn on step one.
The other book. I have the 1983 version. Its description of a Spot Turn page 19 is the worst description of any step I can ever remember seeing. Her goes some of those whos names appear in the front cover couldn't dance their way out of a paper bag then or now.
If you look closly at some of the competitions, in the Cha particularly, you will see the moving foot off the floor often. It is only a matter of time before this is in the technique books. The speed of the moving foot will decide. There is a lot more but thats enough for now.

[Serendipidy]"Make sure that you do a one complete turn on step one. Wally Laird pages 28 and 29. Your body will be facing partner at the start as well as the end of step one."

No!

"Laird is absolutely correct when he says one complete turn on step one."

That is not what he says!

Besides just quoting from the book, you need to read and understand what is written. Look again at the section you quoted from. There are three rows, one for each step, giving step no., timing, beat value, foot position, footwork, and action used. In the final column, body turn, there is only one row covering all three steps indicating that the turn is completed over those three steps.

Check the charts of other figures to see where a turn is broken into parts and some steps have no turn.

Look also at the lady's rope spinning, page 46. Here again a complete turn is made, this time over six steps not all on step 1.

Social Dancer. Personaly I don't even think about it. Apart from taking the first step across the body and giving it a count of two and. The rest is up to me or the teachers style for that particular step. As a competition dancer we can do what ever we wish. If the judge doesn't like what he sees one of the others might. At the end of the third step I will have abided by the rules, or the second step or the first.The description leaves a big leeway especially when the heading says Body Turn..... Body Turn What do you think. Would you have put Body Turn as that heading.
This brings up another point on a New York Rumber or Cha. as you come out of the check do you turn your body to your partnr whilst your feet are still in the same position beforeyou move them. Its just something I noticed on a DVD. If its Cha you will get a better Chasse.
In closing. If you do not turn your body you will look like a cardboard cutout lacking a third dimention.

Hi to All,

Serencipidy. Quote:

/* The description leaves a big leeway especially when the heading says Body Turn..... Body Turn What do you think. Would you have put Body Turn as that heading. */

Please read the 3rd paragraph under the heading of, AMOUNTS OF TURN, on page 9 of the Technique of LATIN DANCING by the late Walter Laird.

lluv2Dance. I've read page 9 many times before. There is nothing there that alters the fact with our best dancers that on just about every step there has body shaping. They do not dance like a block of wood. I can easily complete a full turn with my body without my feet moving from the spot they are standing on. A simple test in shaping. Stand with one foot in front of the other.The RF forward will do. Now pull the left shoulder as far back as is comfortable. Without moving the feet now pull the right shoulder back as far as is comfortable and maybe a bit further. This with our best dancers is what you can see all the time. If it didn't register before I am sure it will from now on. I've been looking at Paul Killick , he does several Solo Spot Turns in his Rumba and do you know what....
The question is. As we turn on a Spot Turn are you facing straight down the floor after turning. That is about 3/4 of a turn. Even less if the first step was taken up the floor. We need a full turn and no swivelling. Does anybody else have the video of a competition on which Gaynor Fairweather said we hate to see swivelling on New Yorks. I've got it.

The only disagreement I have with your post is the term " Shldr "-- right side left side indicates that the " body " is employed in rotation