terence2, are you agreeing that there is a complete turn on step 1 of a spot turn?!

SocialDancer.Find a DvD or on youtube of a couple of world class dancers. Look at one step only in slow motion that is the first step of a Spot Turn. Do you see what appears to be a wind up of the upper body on that first step caused by the feet stepping across the body. If this was Modern it would be called a very strong CBMP. Take a look at the use of the arms as well as the head all used to assist the rotation of the body. Do you see the unwinding and the continuous movement of the body which then leaves the feet behind which is exactly opposite to the first part where the foot walks away from the body. This is very hard to put into words. The best thing to do is to watch several and compare the slightly different actions being used.
If after turning on step one you are facing square down the floor. That is too bland , no style, and is very ordinary. Use the upper body.

It's very difficult to find video of world class dancers dancing spot turns in the same way that they rarely dance a hockey stick. They prefer to show off more exciting stuff which the audience expect.
When you do see one, or more likely when the lady dances an underarm or alemana turn, the turn is very definitely split into separate parts.

I rarely see Paul Killick dance spot turns. I suspect what you have seen is him dancing a series of solo spins which he does quite often, but a spin is not the same as a spot turn.

To return to Laird's description of a spot turn and your interpretation of it. Please try the following spot turn to the right.

Stand feet apart, facing the wall, weight on R foot.
1) Cross LF over body and step on it, leaving the RF approximately in place, and make the complete turn that you say we should so that you are again facing the wall.
Would you now describe your foot position as LF back and slightly to side as Laird describes? Or are you legs crossed?
2) Replace weight to RF in place
3) Can you now with your LF take a fwd walk turning to end LF to side facing the wall?

SocialDancer. Use your partner for the alignments. If I do the alignments as I am supposed to my feet aren't crossed up. I can easly do a forward walk if I wished with my left foot.
Something that most people miss or are never told or they have forgotten is. A Walk goes to the point of imbalance. Added to that still facing our partner there has to be a settling of the hip before we start the first step of the Spot Turn. The weight is completely over our RF, our left hip is higher than our right and the heel of the LF is off the floor both legs are straight. We do now what is literaly a Forward Walk by getting to the point of imbalance. Our left foot is placed across the body. We will turn to the count of two and. As well as all of that we have the use of our body arms and head. You will find that that first step of the Spot Turn is under the body. It is fast and is not a big step.
Now the New York. Be honest who could say without looking what are the amounts of turn. I'll guarantee that most are turning a 1/4 of a turn on the first step. That is after the settling of the hip on the step before , just like the Spot Turn. The amount of turn on the New York should be an 1/8 which will give a much bette body shape and an easier exit. Also you wont need to struggle getting our right side back creating a shape. Try it.
P.S. Something more that should be taken into consideration is that the shoulders and rib cage are able to move much farther than the hips. and don't these top dancers use it. What can be confusing is which is to our front. Is it where our feet are pointing or is it where our body is aligned. One can be pointing in one direction and the other in another direction. In other words my feet can be positioned North and my body East. I wonder which is the front. It is possible that is the reason it gets no mention in the books. Much too hard to explain as I am finding out.

"If I do the alignments as I am supposed to my feet aren't crossed up. I can easly do a forward walk if I wished with my left foot."

Good. Then you are not making a complete turn on step 1. If you were your feet would be crossed and the LF fwd walk would take you crashing into your partner.

I'll go with the 1/8 turn in New Yorks. I've been teaching it that way for years. Remember that the starting alignment is not the same as for the spot turn. There is already a 1/8 turn to PP or CPP from the previous step. (Personally I think it is better without that)

You often see the figure overturned up to 5/8 which is what prompted Gaynor's comment about not liking foot swivels in New Yorks.

If you are finding things hard to explain that is good. You can learn a lot that way, and yes it is the reason for what initially appears to be strange descriptions in the books. Remember the latest ones were prepared by a committee who no doubt could not agree completely. There is an old saying that a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

SocialDancer. Have you got the correct turnout of the feet and also one complete turn of your body which was facing your partner at the start and as you finish beats two (and) is towards your partner, that is your upper body at the completion of two (and). My left foot has a clear path for whatever I choose to do with it. Watch that, that foot is turned out. If I didn't take step one across my body I would be crossed up. Which is what you must be doing. Another fault linked to stepping across the body is being too close together. Get some space between you. Think of step one as a step towards the diagonal. These are all common faults which you will see most of the time.

I hate to keep this going because we do not seem to be getting anywhere.....

Foot turnout is not a factor except that it means the step direction, foot alignment and body alignment may not be the same.
The initial foot turnout will depend on the previous step. Typically this would be a side step with negligible turnout, less than 1/16th.

Who is telling you that you need to make a complete turn on step 1 (count 2&)?
I have never seen any professional do that. In a spin, or spiral, yes, but not in a spot turn.

If you make all the turn on step 1 you have nothing left for the rest of the bar. In the early days the turn was made in three stages but nowadays most dancers use two. Stepping across the body (count 2) introduces 1/4 turn though the body turn is usually delayed until the foot lands and turns another 1/2 (count &). The weight is then replaced to the original standing foot (or optionally a step is taken on that foot) (count3) and the remaining 1/4 turn made (count &) ready for the final step (or chasse in cha) to the side.

I'm not sure about your suggestion to think of step 1 as diagonal, partly because it is not completely clear what you men.
If you are taking step 1 diagonally towards your partner then you will have farther to turn, but you should still not be facing your partner again until the end of step 2.

If your foot is overturned outwards and you are stepping diagonally away from your partner then you have anticipated the turn and gone too early

Socialdancer. The turn out of the foot is an important factor. as is keeping the feet pointing the same direction in the main in modern . I was always told that in Latin if i froze on any step and without altering the shape of the feet brought my feet heel to heel they would still be the LF pointing to 11 and the RF pointing to 1 on a clock face.
i can't see any difficulty facing my partner before the Spot Turn and facing them after the Spot Turn before I do the Chasse on 4 and 1. That's if I want to be facing my partner.
Try this very simple four bars of Rumba without a partner with music. A Cucaracha to the right. Then step LF on beat 2 and a Spot Turn on 3. Hold for 4 1. Spot Turn on 2 this time, out on 3 then RF 4 1 . Cucaracha to the left. Do the whole thing again. On this group we do not have a partner to turn to, so we are pretty well up and down the floor. The only rule is we must step across our body on the Spot Turns otherwise they are not a Spot Turns.

The 1,11 clock face analogy is a very useful simplification to give beginners the feel of latin dancing. If it were really as simple as that there would be a note at the front of the book and there would be no need to ever state "toe turned out". As an example, the toe is turned out more in a checked fwd walk than a progressive fwd walk.
The point is that in a spot turn to the right, the initial turnout of the RF should not affect the direction of the LF step across the body.

As you say, there is no difficulty facing partner before the spot turn and before the chasse, but we have taken two steps by then. You have been saying that we should be facing partner after just the first step which is not correct.

Re your simple routine, which looks very similar to one posted by Anonymous, you cannot dance a spot turn solely on beat 3 because a spot turn is by definition three walking steps in rumba or two walking steps and a chasse in cha. What you can dance is a switch, or a switch action, in effect a fwd walk turning, which is the first step of a spot turn.

Compare this with the waltz. A spin turn is defined as 3 steps. You can dance just the first one but it then becomes a pivot, not a spin turn.

Social Dancer. You haven't got Slavik' s DVD have you. The toe is turned out on every Walk Forward otherwise you will have a visible gap between the thighs more noticable with the ladies.
A normal step two of a Spot Turn is a weight transfer in place, the toe still turns out. It is not a Walk we have not taken two steps by then, only one and a replacement.
This next part has to be read very carefully. Make it a Spot Turn in the Rumba. We are facing our partner. The weight is on the RF having just completed the settling of the hip on beat one, The RF is turned out. Do you swivell on that right foot and step through with your left. Or do you step through and turn the RF out afterwards. The second one is correct. There is no swivell. You would be allowed to swivell if you were doing syncopated New York's in the Cha . You might even swivell for a special effect in the Rumba but in a competition but I would let the judges see a correct Spot Turn afterwards and it would be a big mistake to swivell Rumba or Cha, New York's or Spot Turns continuously otherewise you will get wiped.
If I were you I would get that Phantom Walk you have introduced on beat three sorted out in both your Rumba and Cha.
I do a group in the Cha which requires a Spot Turn to the Left. A Chasse to the Right. A Latin Cross in Promanade. Into another Chasse and check it out on the next beat two. If I don't get those Chasses facing my partner absolutely square it can look very disjointed and the footwork shoddy and not clean or readable.
Well you have opened a can of worms with your Spin Turn in the Waltz. Step 4 is a Pivot with half a turn. The Spin is on step 5 - 6 with three eighths of a turn. There you have a Spin Turn.
Back to the Latin. Take a look at Wally on page 22 for the turnout of the foot and the turn of the body which is the same as coming out of step 2 on a Spot Turn.
A Spot Turn is a Forward Walk Turning A Front Basic is a Forward Walk Checked as is a New York. In the Rumba the whole dance is made up with Forward or Backward Walks. I don't think I know of any book DVD or tape that will tell you that the foot is not turned out to 1/16th front or back If you can tell me of one that does say the feet are straight then I would stand corrected. There should be no difference regardless of whether it is a Walk or a Checked Walk.
If you had Slavik's DVD called Inovation on the Rumba. Karina shows what will happen on a Walk if the toe is not turned out.
I was once told that there are people who because of the build of the leg cannot turn the toe outwards. But most of us do have a natural turnout of the feet, some more than others. In Modern this can be a disadvantage. There are some who have one turned out and the other not turned out.
If we go back to where it is beleived the Rumba Walks came from. It does make sense that the Negro slaves brought to Cuba.. With a sack of sugar on their shoulders would have walked with the upper body still and the feet turned out for balance. We in the dark walking across a room which we know has stuff laying around the floor. I know how I walk feeling my way with my feet. Back to the slaves. After years of walking this way it became muscle memory. It was only natural that it found its way into their dancing which they had brought with them from Africa. What do you say Terence. doesn't that add up.