I just viewed the Hilton clip on "You Tube" and had a good laugh about the extravagant claims being made for the musical phrasing.

There's a standard four bar introduction, and then the clearest eight bar phrasing you could hope for.

Did we think the dancing to be good, or bad?

CliveHarrison. Exactly which of Marcus Hilton's demonstrations on youtube are you referring to on which you had a good laugh. It wan't his Basic Foxtrot on which if you can count was dancing 1 2 3 4 and not at anytime 3 4 1 2. The dancing was excellent as you would expect from a ( is it eight time ) winner of the British. But don't stop there. Have a count of Timothy Howson in the 06 final at Blackpool.
I know it is hard to accept that if you were never told about dancing in rhythm as well as in phrase in the beginning. It makes one wonder if a lot of time and money has been partly wasted.
Phil. On his tape John Wood does talk about being stopped by another couple and how to handle it. He says you have to be aware of the music at all times and to develope what is called in the trade. Elephant Ears. Or just dance on like the others, in time but out of rhythm.

Serendipity: As I can tell the difference between two-bar phrasing and eight bar phrasing, I'm hardly likely to be watching a foxtrot, and believe I'm watching a waltz.

We're talking about "Hilton Basic Waltz" - there's only one clip with that name, and it has a "Dance Universe" title. It is shown three times: twice with music, the second time with counts, and the third time with counts but no music. However, no repetitions are really necessary - the eight bar musical phrasing is very, very clear.

Hi to All,
Just a thought... Do Jazz musicians play using this musical phrasing? Anyway, if it was important to start the Nat Spin Turn as a repeat of the short amalgamation, why not dance a Weave from Promenade Position, after the Whisk?

Serendipity
What exactly did John Wood mean by 'elephant ears' ? I've never heard that expression before except on wildlife programmes!
It takes a lot of skill to be able to adapt in a competition environment. If i'm blocked in an exit from promenade and have to adapt, i don't have the skill to adapt is such a way that i get back onto my 'phrasing' within a couple of bars. And look good in the process of course - as if i meant to do it all along! It's not a lack of musical skills - it's all about dancing and leading.

Phil. Elephant ears means that person is aware at all times what part of the music they are on. They would know if they were on the third bar or the sixth bar in music that is eight bar phrased as well as knowing how to stay in rhythm. Is it realized that if you are out of rhythm you are automaticly also out of phrase. Itn't great that there are those among us who now realize that there is such a thing as dancing in time but out of rhythm. It wasn't untill yours truely started this ages ago and has continuously brought it up that some have at last seen the light . Hallelujah.

Having read all the remarks. Remember we are writting about music suitable to dance Ballroom Dancing to.There are heaps out there that are not eight bar phrased. Billy Joel's Piano Man is one which is V.Waltz Tempo but not suitable to dance the V. Waltz to. Where does that put all of your arguments. In the can I hope where it belongs. Let's get on to something that is of more benifit to us dancers.

"Itn't great that there are those among us who now realize that there is such a thing as dancing in time but out of rhythm."

That is patently obvious and always has been.

What you might not be aware of though, is that placing dance figures in contrast to the musical stress does not necessarily mean that you are either out of rhythm or off phrase.

Just as many styles of music intentionally put a form of stress on the "weak" beats, so can a skilled dancer intentionally place a figure in an "unusual" position relative to the music. Putting it there in ignorance would be wrong, but putting it there by intent, specifically to take advantage of the character generated by putting in in contrast to the music, is the work of genius.

Lining everything up is the simplest answer, and the first one that must be mastered. But it's by no means the end of the story - really, it should only be the beginning.

Anonymous. If in the International Style Rumba I step forward on beat one I am out of Rhythm. The Cha the same. If in the Samba on a Volta I cross my foot on an and count, and then step to the side on the count of one I am out of rhythm with the music.
If in the Foxtrot I start my Feather Step with my right foot on beats 3 4. instead of 1 2. I am out of Rhythm. That would not be the work of a genius. It would be the work of somebody who was never taught correctly. Socially it doesn't matter, although if there is any feel for the music at all it must feel awkward. There are some people who could dance a V. Waltz to a Tango. Or a Rumba to a Polka. So don't be ridiculous.

"If in the Foxtrot I start my Feather Step with my right foot on beats 3 4. instead of 1 2. I am out of Rhythm."

Not necessarily.

It depends entirely on why you did it - for a good reason or for a bad one.

If you did it in ignorance, or thinking that you were in the usual place in the music when you weren't, and expected the usual feather step character to result, then what you did is very bad.

But if you did it in full knowledge, knowing that this would give the feather step a very different character (almost make it a different figure), and that this character is what you intended to achieve, and what you do fits into a greater whole in a way that makes sense, then what you've done is demonstrate a more sophisticated artistic musicality in your dancing.

Obviously, you had better not attempt anything like that until you are very adapt at putting figures in the usual place in the music!