Brian-

There are a number of reasons why any follow would take group classes....

A good follow needs to dance with ALOT of different leads. If a woman is trying to follow a step she doesn't know, then she can't really concentrate and appreciate the differences and nuances in leading. Logically, she needs to be lead by several different men in a pattern that SHE already knows. As she is already comfortable in the pattern she can then begin to understand and analyze the messages she is getting from the different men. Following well is no piece of cake!

Given the chance to dance steps she already knows a follow will begin to appreciate center lead, follow through, frame, head position, foot position, alignment and a myriad of other important but subtle facts. How can a woman know what "correct" feels like if she has never felt "incorrect"?? How can she be expected to master subtleties when she is struggling simply to remember her part? There is NO WAY! She has to know her part like it is written on the soles of her feet. Then she can work on the rest.

Also, everyone needs to feel accomplished. Many students I know occasionally or even often dance a class "down" simply to relax and have fun...to feel pride in what they have learned and to enjoy others appreciation of their efforts.

Finally...it takes a tremendous amount of repetition to ingraine muscle memory of patterns. Every follower must know the patterns, and know them so well that they require very little thought. We do not have time to think to ourselves "Oh my, yes, well that seems to be the lead for a quick reverse. Well then perhaps I should do it." In fact a woman must be highly confident in her abilities to be a great follower, willing to commit all, and to do it immediately. To have fear is "death, death, death" to a lady, as I affectionately quote John Berry, the best smooth/standard coach I've ever had the privelege of working with. So, any woman's desire to be absolutely positively comfortable in her patterns, especially the basics, is something to be applauded.

Besides, after dancing any time at all you will find that you learn valuable lessons from the most unusual places, and that any time on the floor is better than none

Best Wishes,

Champion Dancesport KC

I agree fully with "Always room for practice" and the other comments.

There is an interesting article on dancefreak.com website about this very issue of the difference in learning curve between men and women. Initially, women learn quicker than men. Later, if the men don't quit too early, they will have a spike in the learning curve, while the women's learning curve may slow down if they don't work at improving their skills. I think the article is titled " When will i be good ? " or something to that effect.

I try to attend as many group classes as possible so that i can dance with different men and so improve my following skills. A specific leader may lead me/the follower into a pattern i/she have/has never done and yet we can do it almost flawlessly (relatively speaking) while another leader might totally fail to lead me.
And yes, maybe i should be using the phrase " guide me" instead of "leading " me. This is the context in which this comment should be read.

Followers learn to follow the different leading styles and leaders learn to adjust their lead according to the follower.

I think i get more out of a female instructor for the same reason you are describing below. You hit it right on the head. As a follower it might be weird to take private lessons with a female, but so what. I have had a male instructor that competes regularly and yet i still agree with your reasoning.

Although I'm sure that not knowing the followers role is part of the issue, the teacher does do the followers part in class and has the guys lead him while doing it.

He also regularly dances with other guys (and women who lead) at local social dances. I suspect he is less comfortable doing the followers side since he says that is why he practices in public.




I prefer to have faith in the goodness of people, as well, 8^)

Brian

"a more "personal" connection with a student "

The teacher can get into serious trouble if they don't comply with most studios "no sexual harassment" policies. I know that if you are a NDCA member and i believe most instructors / competitors are, there is a specific clause in the membership contract that prevents such actions.

Just another little thought - I wonder if male teachers (and I am generalizing here..)simply don't understand the follower's role as well? Female teachers obviously have to know both parts well and have to dance lead frequently as there tend to be more female students in class than male. The male teacher, even when presenting the follower's part, is either demonstrating alone (essentially "leading" since there is no partner to "follow") or helping a male student learn how to lead and is therefore concentrating on the leader's role even as he is nominally following. Does that make any sense?? If this is the case he just may not have very many ideas or tips to give the women beyond the basics.

I am happy to hear there is apparently no ulterior motive in your teacher's case. I prefer to have faith in humanity! *LOL*

tourist posted 06-19-03 09:25 PM
tourist suggested that "it sounds like somebody looking to make either more money or a more "personal" connection with a student. I sincerely hope I am wrong."

I'm fairly certain that isn't it. The woman asked for advice for the followers and our teacher didn't have very much to say during class. Besides, I think everyone knows he's dating someone.

Always room for practice posted 06-19-03 02:14 PM
"It isn't too long into the career of an (amateur) dancer before it becomes obvious that in addition to whatever practical utility 'patterns' have, one of their real purposes is to drill basic skills and actions in a variety of contexts which may add quite a bit of complexity. It is one thing to present a leadable frame while standing still - yet another to maintain it while moving, yet more complicated to do it while doing a heel turn - still more to maintain it in a heel turn following a pivot..."

I hadn't thought of that, thanks.

twnkltoz posted 06-19-03 04:50 PM
"I agree with the previous poster...group classes provide an opportunity to practice, particularly in a supervised setting with a variety of partners. In addition, it is very beneficial to be familiar with as many patterns as possible, because not all of them are purely lead- and followable, at least not by the average leader and the average follower...the chances of her following are better if she knows the pattern."

A couple of great points, thanks!

"Plus, we need women in classes! Who would the men practice on without them?"

I particularly like this one. Dancing women always want to dance with guys who know how to dance, but guys need female partners to practice with. If the leaders are to get better they need to dance with a wide variety of followers.

follower posted 06-20-03 08:45 AM
"There is an interesting article on dancefreak.com website about this very issue of the difference in learning curve between men and women. Initially, women learn quicker than men. Later, if the men don't quit too early, they will have a spike in the learning curve, while the women's learning curve may slow down if they don't work at improving their skills. I think the article is titled " When will i be good ? " or something to that effect."

I'll try to find it, thanks!

"Followers learn to follow the different leading styles and leaders learn to adjust their lead according to the follower."

I expect that is why most teachers ask people to trade partners, right?

Thanks for all your comments, and if anyone else has any input I would apreciate it!

Brian

I agree with the previous poster...group classes provide an opportunity to practice, particularly in a supervised setting with a variety of partners. In addition, it is very beneficial to be familiar with as many patterns as possible, because not all of them are purely lead- and followable, at least not by the average leader and the average follower...the chances of her following are better if she knows the pattern.

Plus, we need women in classes! Who would the men practice on without them?

You would not be the first to suggest that group classes are less beneficial to followers after a certain point. But the situation isn't quite as simple as you make it sound, either.

It isn't too long into the career of an (amateur) dancer before it becomes obvious that in addition to whatever practical utility 'patterns' have, one of their real purposes is to drill basic skills and actions in a variety of contexts which may add quite a bit of complexity. It is one thing to present a leadable frame while standing still - yet another to maintain it while moving, yet more complicated to do it while doing a heel turn - still more to maintain it in a heel turn following a pivot...


While the ladies may not need to spend as much time thinking about the various orders in which things can be put together, they do need to gain practical experience in following different sorts of combinations, learn to stay balanced in various positions, etc.