Okay...in which point I can't disagree with you. If its clave that makes the rumba...than clave there must be.

I still have a concern when it comes to dancing in general places. I want to be able to take a dance that I know has the correct beat and illustrate that more can be done with it than just the basic shuffling in place people have come to decide is dancing. Where is the cutoff? I'm truly and honestly asking your opinion. There is no other intention.

How pure should ballroom be?

Thank you Terence

The trend in competitive Latin Dance, for years, has been away from "traditional" music, and the distinctive rhythmic patterns that they contain within the basic 4-beat-in-a-bar pulse. That trend has trickled down into social dancing, such that is is comparatively rare to be offered really authentic Latin music any more. Which is not to say that "appropriate" music is not to be preferred, but it would be a bit precious to suggest, for expample, that Buble's "Lost" doesn't make a slow, but very good, Rumba in the contemporary fashion.

Nothing stands still (except in museums) and we need to be open to the best of the new, or just fade away ...

The " trend " as you so aptly put it, still does NOT provide the necessary foundation for the variations that are suppose to reflect the polyrhythmic arrangements.. you may defend the use of other styles of music, but its a flawed defense...

how is it possible to educate future " dancers " by implying that the pop song is reflective of the " style " ?.

And as to social style, I ALWAYS use authentic rhythms.. thats what my students ( and most all anywhere ) are attracted to .
The responses that I always receive ,when this topic arises are generally by those who lack the knowledge and understanding of the genre ( and that includes many high profile Prof. ).. . heaven only knows, the mis placed theories and techniques that have been changed by people following blindly along .
The " watering " down of the music, to appease certain factions ,is gradually destroying the truer concepts.

By observing the dance scene as it is, rather than how you would have it be. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but you plough a lonely furrow.

In the circles in which I mix.. not remotely lonely ! ( I do believe the world latino population outnumbers competitors by just a tad .. 30 million, give or take a few )

I would like to add, that I have and do teach Intern. style latin in content.. but NOT musically in pop style.

Well, if what you say is so, the authentic style would sweep the board. We would all be dancing your way, but we're not, and nothing's about to change.

There may well be 30m Latinos, but how many of them dance at all, let alone historically authentic versions of their traditional dance styles? Something tells me they all bought "Thriller" too. And probably dance to it as well.

By the way.. its NOT " my " way.

You quite obviously have little or no experience in the Latino community in general and also Central and S. America.. not to mention the " islands " . Add to this, the world wide explosion of the Genre .

The social salsa scene outnumbers the B/room by many millions.. tell me one place where it is possible to see more than ONE ballroom social in a week ? ( include London ) Salsa has 7 nites a week going on , in many world wide major metro. areas, and even in small areas like mine, one can find at least 3 weekly socials..

you my friend, are completely out of touch with reality !

Reality is often as we would choose to see it. I hadn't realised that in London you can only dance socially once a week unless you are a Latino - that sounds rather unlikely.

In my area, I can dance Ballroom/Latin six nights a week (Sunday being the only day when there is little or nothing on offer). On most days, I can choose between two or three venues. The current fashion for Salsa and its derivatives is obvious for all to see, but, at least around here, the venues are not filled by Latinos dancing to "authentic" music.

Actually, they're not filled with Latinos of any sort, and if there is a vibrant Latino community in my city, it is well hidden. What I see is ordinary people, many of whom have "graduated" from that abomination, Modern Jive, but who were drawn to its Salsa component, and have tried "the next level". The music is very mixed, just as it is at most venues. I doubt the DJ would be very interested in your idea of authenticity.

Back to the International style, I was at a dance last night, where the band played lots of Rumba, but they were a four-piece, and had no traditional Latin percussion; and while the drummer made an attempt at the claves rhythm from time to time, I would far rather have had the chance to dance to something more authentic. However, I wanted (and got) a mixed programme, and I was waiting for the next Jive, and wanting to practise a group of figures in Foxtrot. You could have the same discussion about the music Jive is danced to, and the debt owed by our current dance styles to Black American culture, but nothing stands still, and we take what's on offer.

Firstly you need to know this about me... I abandoned the " balroom " concept of latin many yrs ago.

after spending close to 50 yrs around latinos, teaching, learning ,and immersing myself in the culture, it became abundantly clear ( to me ) that the social aspect of the genre ( in al the dances from Guajira to Bachata ) had a much more fundamental purpose than the level the B/room world has taken it to.

Dance is not ONLY about Competition.The numerous latin countries that have provided us with this style of music, are convinced that " we " have poluted it with the acrobatics etc., that have long been inserted into the " style " .

its always the same old cry " Progress ".. Im not against progress, but the REAL progress in the genre, is in its Music. this has gone thru a new paradigm with the intro of more native rhythms that the majority of Prof. never seem to research .

Its akin doing Q/step to 1940s music ( 2/4 time )..

If you are seriously interested in knowing more.. go to my articles on Salsa Central ( there are 2 )

i have also done a " piece " today on Salsa Forums( Bottom of the page) .. in both cases. just type the name, it will direct you to the sites .

Having read the other posts, there are some songs that come to mind:

01. Michael Jackson WHATEVER HAPPENS
02. Santana FLOR DE LUNA (MOONFLOWER)
03. Vanessa Daou IF I COULD (WHAT I WOULD DO...)
04. Jose Feliciano ANGELA
05. Barbara Streisand THE WAY HE MAKES ME FEEL
06. Enya ONLY TIME

Songs 1&2 have a distinct rumba beat to them. #3 has a sinewy bass line from which one can dance rumba rhythms. Songs 4-6 have been danced by Latin pros at one time or another.