I choose to compete. But that doesn't mean I have to worship the game, even if I do play by the rules. I don't want to take it so seriously and unquestioningly that I forget who I am and what my own personal goals are.



I like to think about things. That is obvious by the fact that I have spent so much time posting on this disucssion board. Mostly, though, the thing I love about dancing is the non-verbal part of just performing and practicing. It is an outlet for an overactive mind like mine.

Thanks for you comments, Been There, and for letting others know of the other venues that exist for them.

Dancing and loving it,

Karen

What makes a sport competition a competition is the understanding that people are showing up to play some sort of game according to some set of rules, and that winners and losers are decided. There are rules for dancesport: the IDSF, the NDCA, and USABDA all have them. At all but local club competitions judges have to be certified, certification is achieved by passing a series of judge's exams.

There are other ways to get feedback about one's dancing besides entering competitions. Aside from the scored showcases and performance showcases I mentioned below, there are also medalist exams for amateurs, run by the ISTD. You study each level (Bronze, Silver, etc.) and take an examination and receive a grade and comments from a special ISTD examiner. Like scored showcases, you are judged on a standard for the level, and you receive actual feedback rather than just a set of recalls and marks.

People do have choices, it's not like the organized competitions are the only opportunity. If you don't hear about these other opportunities it could be because they just aren't advertised well enough in your circle or that there aren't enough people in your area interested in them to make them economically feasible.

My perceptions about the Judging at Competitions:

I have appreciated everyone's comments in this discussion so far. I am sure that there are people more experienced than myself at stating what the judges want and how they judge. I will just give you my impressions from having observed competitions for many years and having participated in them for the past year.

First of all, I have yet to see a competition that has a published standard or criteria by which they judge the competitors. If I were to design a competition, I would call together a panel of judges and have them come up with a standard to judge by, then make that list public before competitors enter a competition. This would become the standard against which the competitors were graded and the judges would need to justify their judgment based upon that standard. Also, I would have that standard have various levels of achievement. If there were four people who attained the highest level in a category, there might be four first places. If there were none who attained the highest level, there may only be a third place, a second place and no first places.

Now, from my observation, this is not the way it is done. Instead, each judge has their own criteria by which they judge a competitor and there are several judges. Each judge makes their marks and then those marks are tallied and a sum (depending upon the formula) is the competitor's score. In many competitions, the results are posted on a wall or available in a binder so the competitors can see how each judge has ranked them. The first round only has an "R" for recall, if the judge says the competitor is to go to the next round. Then for the finals, there are specific ratings for positions. For example, if there were 6 finalists, then they would be rated 1-6. I won't go into further detail here, because each competition has its variations. But, from what I can see, the most a competitor can learn from their rating is which judges favor what they do and to try to guess the judges' criteria. Or they might take a lesson with that judge and pay to get specific feedback on their dancing and to see how the judge thinks.

In my opinion, the ways things are done in the status quo are easier on the judges and harder on the competitors. Not to say that either job is easy. The competitor is left trying to understand why they have been judged as they are, without a clear concept of what the judges' goals are. They may find themselves competing for a long time before they finally figure out that what a particular group of judges are looking for is not what they want for themselves.

There is an element of mystery that leaves the judges some room to make arbitrary decisions, if they are pressed for time.

If there were a published standard for each competition, it would be better for the competitors. Competitiors could understand the judging system before deciding to participate and they could understand the results better. It would be more work for the competition. The competition itself would have to set the standard (with an initial panel of judges) and all subsequent judges would have to adhere to that standard. Many judges might not like that system, because they are independent minded folks. But as a competitor, I would far prefer it.

Next is the issue of first, second, third place, etc. Everyone goes into our modern day competitions with the agreement that there is a scarcity of places available. For example, rarely is there more than one first place, one second place, etc. So, if you have a competition with five extremely gifted dancers all worthy of first place, the judges, would be required to rate them 1 through 5. To me, this is setting up a situation of artificial scarcity. In other words, the first place is the scarce resource. Also, I have noticed that if there are not any dancers dancing at top level in a competition, the judges still award 1-5 prize, in most cases. This means that the standards that the individual judges use to rate the finalists is variable, depending upon who enters the competition. The higher caliber the contestants, the higher standards the judges have to use to differentiate between the competitors and place them 1-6.

So, with these things in mind, it might be wise for someone who is a competitor to think carefully about their personal goals for competitions.

For example, if you are a competitor and your primary goal is to win first place, then you are going to have a certain degree of frustration, under the current system figuring out how to do that and there is going to be a certain expense and time required to try to figure out the mysteries of how it is done. And when it comes down to it, a lot will depend upon the luck of the draw, when it gets to the top 10%.

My personal goals as a competitor are to improve my dancing, gain performance experience and achieve the highest mastery that I can achieve, in keeping with how I want to portray myself on the dance floor. Although I appreciate the role of the judges in a competition, unless I know them and their standards, it has not been extremely meaningful for me to receive 1st place, even though I have done so a number of times. I can accomplish more by hiring a coach to critique my dancing who gives me specific feedback. But, I go to competitions because I enjoy watching others dance, I enjoy performing and I am glad that I don't have to produce the events. Also, I like to support my friends. Competitions also give me goals to strive for, as in moving from one level of dancing to the next (i.e. from Bronze, to Silver, to Gold, to Novice to Pre-Championship to Championship levels). But, when it all comes down to it, the trophies in my room are just pretty decorations and the real value I get is in the people I meet, the time I enjoy practicing with a partner and the fun of performing. I do appreciate the feedback of the judges, even though I don't always understand it. It is especially hard to know what it means when you didn't see the people who competed against you, because you were all competing at the same time.

Even though I propose changes for the way competitions could be run, I realize that the current system solves a myriad of problems and that any of these changes would present other problems to be solved. So, really, as long as competitors are happy with the current system, the competition producers will probably not make any radical changes. The bottom line is whether there are enough contestants to pay the bills. When a better alternative comes up, and people start flocking to it, then some changes may occur in that established system. But, people generally don't like to initiate change or take big risks...

Well, I am stepping off my soapbox now.

Thanks for listening..

Dancing and loving it,

Karen

[This message was edited by KarenL on 08-23-03 at 03:09 PM.]

A few points:

I agree that a published standard or at least a list of judging criteria would be useful and instructive. I don't know if it makes sense for the 'open' levels, but it would be helpful on the syllabus levels. I also know that each competition has a "chairman of judges" who is responsible for referreeing the event (as in interpreting rules and make sure they are applied) and also for instructing the judges. For example, a judge might say "this is a Junior-level event, and costumes are optional, so please make sure that your judging isn't being influenced by the costuming."

As for the awarding multiple first places, etc. I think that's a little silly. It is a dance SPORT competition, and in competitive sports there are winners and losers and one place per team. That's the way it goes, that's the nature of competition. Competition isn't for everyone. Fortunately there are other performance venues for people who don't like the structure of competitions. There are scored showcases, there are pure performance showcases, and of course there is social dancing.

If a couple is "competing for a long time before they finally fingure out what a particular group of judges is looking for" then I'd say that they don't have a very good coach. A good coach should be able to tell you what you should be working on, what the judges want to see, and to explain why your marks went a certain way.

Hi,
many thanks for such valuable comments.

There are few reasons why I'm confused and ask such question.

The first thing is I notice that one male student, not having such great posture comparing to others (men or women) in the same heat (according to my observation), but having a very good teacher doing all nice and fancy work while he's almost in place, gets many first place. (i would rather give that to other candidates).

Another thing is, coming to the end, I notice that (almost all) students winning are with the same teachers. That's why I beleive having very good teacher as parner make big difference.
Also, as mentionned by Jonathan, "greatest advantage are those that contain the most talented student AND teacher together", a good/better teacher will make the difference when 2 competitors are about the same level, or teach can even offset the performance of students. Couldn't it ?

Also, a choregraphie built by more experience/better teacher do have big influence. Doesn't it ?

All that being said, please correct if I'm wrong, other than working hard and being good dancer/student, students need to find a very good teacher (as parner) to have more chance for pro-am competition.

Best regards,

Hi,
I am a certifided judge and there are a few things that you must consider. is that we as judges only get about 10 seconds to look at each couple on the floor depending on how many couples there are in the heats. As far as the lady instructor goes that is not and I repeat is not the case. You are being judged from the moment you take your first step onto the dance floor until the time you leave the dance floor. I have seen so many dancers worry about what other people are doing that they loose their concentration thus they mess up what they are doing. Try to remember 3 letters and they are C. C. D. Confidence, Control and Determination. You must have Confidence in yourself and your teacher. Control is something that you learn. Determination is just being determined to do the best that you can do. Also we as judges start by looking at what is most offensive to our eyes, and as you know everybody is different including us judges, and then we go from there. I hope this helps. Keep on Dancing.