"Yes, we're talking about the same thing: the structure of musical phrases, but they are of little direct help in fitting amalgamations to the patterns (if we want to) because so many of the obvious patterns do not work with typical musical phrases."

Many of the "obvious patterns" are only obvious in the dance mechanics sense.

I think there's very little obligation to use any particular figure besides a (1-3 of) natural or two in your waltz and a feather or two in your foxtrot. So just because something is (or at some time was) presented early in the physical education of a dance doesn't mean you are required to use it, or to use it in its original timing, if you can't figure out how to fit it into what you want to accomplish musically.

Generally there is a musical way to apply everything, but it might involve a non-elementary precede or follow.

Let's suppose that the dance is foxtrot, and that the music falls naturally into 8-bar phrases. You're not showing off your fanciest amalgamations, just enjoying dancing with a partner who matches your own considerable experience. What do you dance?

"Let's suppose that the dance is foxtrot, and that the music falls naturally into 8-bar phrases. You're not showing off your fanciest amalgamations, just enjoying dancing with a partner who matches your own considerable experience. What do you dance?"

Whatever fits the moment. That includes things like overall mood, characteristics of the music, locations and habits of others on the floor. It's highly experimental... and that means making some obvious mistakes at times, but such are part of learning and developing new aspects of dancing. In particular, I try to include both classic drifting elements, and more dramatically inflected ones highlighting aspects of the music.

With an experienced partner its interesting to try to both show the essential definition of foxtrot and explore its boundaries in the same dance, with a less experienced partner I generally try to stick to the traditional essence to build up their confidence in foxtrot.

... and on a good day? A nice 16-bar routine ...

telemark: are you a sequence dancer by any chance ?

Telemark. You can fit a Natural Turn in the Foxtrot into a stict 8- bar unit. Alter the timing so that your first step of your Feather following the Heel Pull is on beats 1 2 and not 3 4. Take an extra Slow.
Another way is to alter the timing after the Heel Pull to a Quick and alter the Feather Step to all Quicks starting on beat two.
What we shouldn't be doing is dancing back to front like 3 4. 1 2. with the music. Done this way a Rever5se Turn for instance should feel awkward if you are at all musical. The same should apply if we dance a 2/4 choreographed Tango to a 4/4 being played . We wont get into the Samba or even the Jive which are counted in eights by the elite.

Hi to all,
I'm sure I've heard Slow Foxtrots played with the second and forth beats accented. In a case such as this, would we start a Feather on beat two?

Taking your first suggestion, I regularly put in an extra S after the H Pull, so as to step LF fwd on beats 1/2 of the next bar, but if I continue with a Feather, SQQ on bar eight, I have started to repeat a seven bar amalgamation, not an eight bar one.

My question, to those of you who consider matching the choreography to the phrasing to be the Holy Grail of dancing, was to say WHAT you would dance, in multiples of eight.

Counting Samba in the way you suggest is beginner stuff - how else would you do it? Elite!

"My question, to those of you who consider matching the choreography to the phrasing to be the Holy Grail of dancing, was to say WHAT you would dance, in multiples of eight."

Did some thinking and experimenting on your question, and have some observations to share:

- Foxtrot is probably the dance where the essence of the action itself is prized more than any other. In many case, showing sublime mastery of the physical part of the dance may be more of a priority than echoing 8-bar phrasing structure in the choreography.

- For me, the ends of phrases are more important than the beginnings. Outside of a show context, nobody is going to watch your dance all the way through, but when the music is rolling through the big cadence at the end of the phrase, it would be nice to reflect that in the dancing. Instead of constraining yourself to follow a set routine throughout, I like the idea of hearing the approach of the end of phrase and reacting to it. That reaction might be in the choice of figure, or it might be in the character of how you execute the figure.

- 8 bars seems impractically short to try to get yourself into a musical and geographical position to repeat from a feather. I think 16 is probably the shortest useful, and 16 at least gives you the chance to cover a long wall and a short wall, and then start over from the opposite corner.

- Starting over from the change of direction with an extra slow on the first half of the last measure and then the prep step on the second half in order to put a feather on the first bar of the next phrase sometimes feels right, and sometimes feels like hanging out waiting too long. A lot depends on the mood of the music and your ability to sell the pre-movement energy while waiting.

- Consider dancing linear figures down the long wall and ending the 8th bar in a line into the corner at it's end. Then dance 8 bars of more contrasting figures across the short wall, and start over on the new long wall. Example - not stellar, but workable:

1 feather
23 reverse wave
4 extend it with back feather
5 f.finish
6 fallaway reverse and slip pivot
7 double reverse
8 contra check into corner
9 heel pull to curved feather
10 back feather
11 f. finish
12 1-4 of reverse wave (checking action)
13 chasse to right (or basic weave)
14 weave ending
15 change of direction
16 extra slow, and prep step
reprise

(There are _lots_ of potential substitutions)

- If you extend a basic sequence with two measures of reverse wave action as above, you can end the phrase with a natural turn SQQSS on bars 7 and 8. Begin the next phrase on the short wall not with a feather or natural figure, but with an open reverse turn either into a f.finish or more reverse waving. Noodle across the short side and set up for another linear passage on the next long wall.

Its pretty unusual for me to agree with anyone here (!), but I agree with Cyd that we should avoid dancing 34 12 patterns, and with anymouse that the 'essence of the action' is prized more than any other'.

Both viewpoints lead me to conclude that strict (slavish?) adherence to an arbitrary 'match the choreography to the musical phrasing' rule is going to restrict, and not enhance my choreography. There IS no such rule anyway, and I, for one, couldn't care less about the particular requirements of the dancesport scene (where, anyway, the 'rule' is a cop-out for the lazy who couldn't otherwise work out for themselves how to dance musically, and who are just flapping about like performing seals at a circus).

Eights are too short, but I would probably agree that choreography that fits sixteen bar units is tidy, and will always look well, if danced well. As I said in another recent post, we should aim to dance at a standard where the technique is our servant and not our master.