I choose my figures to suit the music, so of course I pay due attention to the musical phrasing. This does not in any sense mean that I am dancing a sequence: or that my partner could know her 'part'. Given a wide range of available figures, and a working knowledge of their precedes and follows, I am very unlikely to dance the same amalgamations all evening, let alone after eight bars.

I agree that the hand has no part in the leading, for people who have danced for some time. They learn the other contact points and that leading originates in the body-to-body contact in standard. That also means they have to actually be able to maintain the hold and the frame.

ALso...this isn't true for Latin...in my experience.

I might be wrong but I have times in Latin when I'm doing certain figures that are led based on the positioning of his left in my right....New Yorkers for instance...a fan in rumba or cha cha...

So, are you guys trying to tell me that the man's left arm and hand are not part of his "Frame"?

No, it is part of the frame. It is just that the lead really should originate elsewhere (dancers core). It can still communicate (hence maintaining constant pressure) it should just not be the main source of information.

There is no inconsistency between the man's LH to lady's RH hold forming part of the dance frame, and the hand-clasp NOT being used in guiding or leading.

The joined hands move, as the couple move, but the relative position of the hands (and therefore the frame) remain static, and do not alter from moment to moment.

The fact that the muscles of the dancers' bodies are braced at all times means that they will feel the rotation of one another's bodies, but the hand-clasp is the least appropriate point of physical contact from which to 'communicate' the intention to rotate. Men do not 'steer' their partners around the floor using the extended arm as though a tiller on a boat, but rather, the couple move together, the lead having been already felt elsewhere.

The fact that in rotation, the movement is most apparent at the extremity of the frame (the point farthest from the centre of rotation) emphatically does NOT mean that it originated there.

In my experience, man not only should lead, man also should follow. It might sounds like double talk! Let me explain: Man start leading by signal the lady (usually from the body lowering action) to receive the lady onto his movement(or body). Lady at that time should give her motion to men. Man than continue with the lady's motion and follows her until the end of the step.

Body holding makes a big difference on leading and follow. Most american like to have right side to right side hold. It makes very difficult for lady to read your signal and follow because both partner are traveling to different tracks. British like to have diaphragm to diaphragm hold. This hold makes stronger signal for lady to follow and lead because both partner are traveling in the same track and both dance as one.

Cy, thanks for the comments. My opinion is based from my training and experience. Of course everyone learned differently and should maintain whatever work for them.

Man always starts to lead whether he is in front or back or any position from lady. Man must encourages lady's moves then follows her moves afterward. I always lead my lady even from the 123 of the natural by doing proper CBM, sway, rise and fall, and foot works. These are all in the syllabus.

Many people use right side to right side lead today. It seems to make their frame wider. And many people look like they are doing the right side to right side lead. It looks that way because their poise and posture. Try to do a whisk (which is in pp position) with the right side to right side lead, you will find the lady will get way behind man's right hip. Consequently, man's right shoulder will get distorted. This will make any swing difficult. Many dancers shift their body slightly when they are in pp to avoid getting lady to0 far back...

Whatever, doesn't matter. Most important is to enjoy your dancing.

Garry

Garyfong. You obviously have an excellent teacher.
Glen Weisse ex cahampion goes into the Whisk and points out a few things which are different. We start the Whisk in the Waltz facing diag to wall. Without turning we place the 2nd step to the side which is diag to wall against the LOD and crosses behind.He then says that the mans shoulders which includes his arms must turn to point down the LOD. If they dont we are ready to go Diag to centre when where we should be going is down the LOD He shows this, which is easier than trying to write it.
Leading and following. All we need to remember is that the person going forward is in charge and takes the straight line. The person going backwards is making sure, that in this case the lady, doesn't have to step around their partner but goes where he was. I hope that makes sense. Intersting tho' Isn't it.

Cy, thanks. My teacher is Denis Murphy from Liverpool. He learned from Charles Thebault (who also was the late Bob Irvine's teacher). In fact, Irvine has an video clip in youtube which talk about holding and stance.

Something else which is often misunderstood is when we are told to stay on the supporting leg longer in the Standard Style. That doesn't mean wait until the foot is under the body and then stand on it longer. What it does mean is allow the rear foot go all the way to the tip of the toe before moving it forward and under the body. Let us also not forget that only one foot moves at a time. When the front foot stops moving the back foot begins to move.