Hi Don,
When Walter Laird had his Latin technique book first published in 1964, he referred to the timing of a 1/4 beat as ‘and', just as you have done. (The Volta Timing) It was only when he accepted a lecture in Leeds, Yorkshire, UK. that he was questioned by the late, Jack Dixon, of Bradford, Yorkshire, UK - Jack had been the number one man for Latin with the old International Dance Masters' Association. (IDMA) Walter was the number one man for the Dance Teachers' Association (DTA) and after the amalgamation of the two societies to become the International Dance Teachers' Association (IDTA) then Walter's work was preferred to Jack's. During his lecture Walter was interrupted by Jack who pointed out to Walter that the word ‘and' was being used for a ½ beat as well as a 1/4 beat. Also the word ‘and' takes too long to enunciate and the pupil is not made aware of the quick change of weight required when executing movements requiring a 1/4 beat. Jack therefore suggested a word that is phonetically shorter to be used exclusively for all 1/4 beat movements. Jack also suggested that the best method of achieving this is to make use of the ‘a' (pronounced ‘ah' or ‘er') for timing all 1/4 beat movements, irrespective of whether the time signature is 2/4 or 4/4. In the reprints of the Laird book, Walter added a new chapter to his book called,'A Note On Timing.' and listed the suggestions made by Jack - but no credit given. When Walter returned to Leeds to give another lecture, later in the year, he walked onto the floor and slowly turned around viewing the audience and said, ‘ Is Jack here?'.

I am confused about the time-line concept in general.
Let's draw a time-line from left to right, with equal intervals to represent the consecutive beats.

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 <-Musical count
........................

When we say beat 1, do we refer to the time duration from 0 to 1 on the time-line ? If so, then that duration represents 1 full beat
from standing still to the 1st beat is counted.
Using the example of "1 a 2",
would the time-line look this ?

0 1 2 3 4 5 6
........................
1a 2 <--------------Samba count

Can someone enlighten me ?
Can you also give an example of foxtrot steps in time-line ?

Thanks.

Hi Beginner:

I hope you are enjoying your new hobby.

Rather than having a zero "0" on your timeline, think of the music in beat patterns that repeat, because once you start dancing there will be no "standing still" until the song is ended. So think of a samba simple beat time line as 12121212 or 12341234

The samba uses partial bits of the whole counts as stated in the previous posts.

It might help to show the beats in a timeline vertically rather than horizontally.

If we divide one beat into 4 equal "quarters" then 1 a2 3 a4 becomes

1--a
2---
3--a
4---
1--a
2---
3--a
4---

1 is 3 quarters of the beat 1
a is the last quarter of the beat 1
2 is the whole beat
3 is 3 quarters of the beat 3
a is the last quarter of the beat 3
4 is the whole beat

When starting to dance any dance, we do not start from a standing still position, but instead compress into a standing leg, ready to propel ourselves onto the free foot on the first beat. This is why instructors count down the music or the beat ("5678" or "56 ready and") so that the dancer knows when to compress in advance of the first "step" on 1. So in Samba, listening to the music we would be compressing on 4 to propel us into the 1 a2 3 a4 rythym. If a teacher was counting "56 ready and", on "and" we would be compressing on one foot/leg to move us into the first step on the other foot on 1. As we continue to dance this compression happens automatically in the step pattern.

Foxtrot is different. While Samba takes more than one step in one beat, the foxtrot extends a step over two beats. The discussion of timelines for Foxtrot could get very involved and technical. It would be interesting to see a discussion on the timeline for a continuity foxtrot change step. Any takers?

Re: FOXTROT timing

I learned American FT, but I was always fascinated by International because the pauses and the stealing of fragments of the beat were so different than the usual S-Q-Q I had learned.

I would love to see that discussion of a continuity FT step.

Jerry Blumenthal

Eh!?

Hi bjp22tango,
Thank you for your explanation.
You vertical time-line works well.
It is clearer now.

My confusion is about which duration(before a beat or after a beat)
belongs to that specfic beat.

Based on the explanation,
I now understand that it is the duration after a beat.

Is it the same with Foxtrot ?
In SQQ sequence,
when I land my foot on S count,
do I have 2 more beats to use
before reaching the next Q ?

BTW, I don enjoy the hobby tremendously,
but it can get very challenging,
or shall I say frustrating, at times.

I'm pretty sure standard practice is that a beat begins on the downbeat and ends just as the next downbeat begins. So if you count 1, 2, 3, 4 each number begins a new beat and lasts until just before the next number. So as you figured out from the vertical time line, it's the time after a beat that gets counted as that specific beat.

Yes, it's the same for foxtrot. If you step right on the beginning of the 2 count S step (right as 1 hits), then you have 2 beats to use before you hit the first 1 beat Q step. Not to get too far into it, but this is also why you can see foxtrot timing being changed around a bit and still be considered on time. If the S lasts for 2 beats, then your foot can actually land at any time in that interval and you've stepped on the slow. So you could step on the 2 count instead of the 1 count and you're still stepping on the S.

In explaining The Samba timing to a beginner in such a way they can actually dance it nothing beats the Whisk. A Whisk to the left, two beats.
Left foot goes out on the count of 3/4. Right foot crosses behind into a Latin Cross position on the count of a 1/4 . We now have a weight transfer which is on the spot for the remaining beat. Then do the same to the right. Now try a Boto Fogo using the same rhythm, using a 3/4 on the first step and finishing on a whole beat.. Good Luck.

Ken. Some excelent information there.I actually saw Wally Laird dancing Modern in the early 50's long before his move into Latin . Talking of getting credit which many times gets forgotten. I never hear the name Philip Mayhew and Olga. They were pioneering Latin in those very early days. I saw them give a demo in Bob Burgess's place in South Kensington London in 1953, up to that time I had never seen any of the Latin dances. Thanks.

Hi Don,
I also saw Philip Mayhew and Olga Kotch? do a dem. Talking to Walter the year before he sadly passed on. We reminisced about the time he entered both modern and Latin at the Royal Albert Hall. Having received recalls in both comps he was recalled to the final of the Latin. Walter told me that he knew he would be pushed for time and during the changing of costumes he and Lorraine heard the Latin music start to play. In time they stood in the entrance to the floor and this was one of the moments they knew they would have to concentrate on one style. Just one other small point. He was dancing with Ande Lyons and in 1956 won a competition to find Britain's best exponent of ballroom and Latin dancing. Good to know you are from the UK, Don.