Something else to think about. The ladies left arm should be where ?. It must depend on the length of the arm in relation to the man. The book says the fingers of the ladies left hand should be grouped neatly on the mans right arm between the elbow and the shoulder. I've seen some, who have had to make contact on the outside of the mans upper arm and win major competitions. In my humble opinion the first priority is the body conection, right side to right side. Then find a comfortable position for the arm. As the great Len Scrivener wrote. If it doesn't feel comfortable then it is probably wrong.

I agree quickstep. I was taught to place my left hand right on where the mans shoulder becomes his arm (though that isn't the best description.) But I have met a couple that are very good smooth dancers and they have a HUGE height difference! The man is atleast a foot or so taller than the woman. And because of this the woman puts here hand on the back of his arm by his shoulder blade, his actual shoulder is so far up that it feels uncomfortable for her. Yet no coach of theirs has ever said that it is wrong. I think it just depends on the people.

Thank you all for the informative replies.

Quickstep, your comment about "pulling" the shoulders back was very helpful.

I should have added before that in the past the mans right hand was wrapped around the lay, about just below the shoulder blade. Todays dancer, it wouldn't matter if his hand was cut off.It is now just a decoration. The contact point between the man and lady on this side is the mans wrist under the ladies armpit. The lady with her shape to the left should put some weight onto the mans wrist. This is one off the major contact points and can influence the position of the ladies left arm. What a lot of writting just to say the hand and arm are much different today than they were yesterday. But having said all of this it doesn't mean that the male can lift the lady into an uncomfortable position ,which of course brings us to another discusion and that is what is the ideal heigh in a partnership. In other words there might have to be a compromise here and not just right wrist to armpit, here we go hang on.
Who can tell me how many contact points there should be ?

contact points .... or connections or are they the same thing?

OK , i want to say one point would be just below the ladys breasts to the mans right chest, this is a connection point... well wait, now i am getting myself confused. a contact point would be any area where there is contact between a man and a woman correct? that being true, the ladys left hand is not really a conncection but merely, just a contact.. someone pleae correct me if i am wrong. i want to say that another connection is the ladys right hand in the mans left hand. so i am guessing that there are three major contact points? ( If i am reading it corectly) unless you count the ladys left hand as contact, then there would be four!

In answer to your question.

An exerpt from "TheFryingDragon" posted in this web site about the basic points of contact. Full text can be found in:

https://www.ballroomdancers.com/Message_Board/view_messages.asp?MsgID=9153&PageNum=1

"...To lead properly in closed position (smooth/standard) requires a good understanding of the five "points" of contact. These are: (1) the man's left hand w/ lady's rt. hand, (2)rt. palm around the lady's left back (scapula) area(allowing for height and so on), (3)right forearm (under ladies left upper arm), (4) lady's left hand on the man's right upper arm (below the deltoid) and (5) the body.

The combination of these points form the basis of the language that the lady must listen for, interpret, and execute--factoring the general direction of movement as a couple, swing, balance, and so on. Sometimes you can omit words in sentences and still convey the proper context of the message. Thus with just one point of contact you could lead a lady into a turn. Leading is simply communication. Good communication requires good sentence structure. Word choice can make a sentence elegant and supremely understandable. Sloppy words create garbled messages. Same thing. For instance, holding the left hand/arm correctly makes it easy to follow."

I am always making a comparison between how I was first taught and how it is today. It has changed dramatically over the years. The contact point between the man and lady is much higher leaving a lot of freedom down below. One teacher pointed out that it would be possible to pass your arm below the hips between the couple without making contact with any part of the bodies. The amount of pressure between the two bodies. A former Rising Stars Blackpool winner told us that if we placed our palms together with our partner and push we have ten out of ten presure. Now ease of untill it is below two. That is so different than when I first learnt. The feet between the partnership are much further apart. Before the lady legs were under the man. She was also encouraged to lean her head back putting too much weight over the heels. Incidentally some teachers who have not had a lesson themselves in some twenty years or so, are still teaching that way.

it is possible for the lady to tilt her head back without weight being transferred onto her heels. Good examples in some of these pictures- http://www.dancesport.uk.com/photos/index.htm

Phil. This is an interesting point . Does the ladies head being held over the back affect whether her weight is over the heels or not. Ask the lady in question exactly where her weight is, there is your proof. What you can see on video is a lady curving to her left side and not just back. There are two curves here, one with out the other is useless. ( From Richard Gleaves Video).
An example of the ladies position was given like this. She is in the corridor of train just arriving at the station. On the platform is somebody she doesn't want to see her. The window is 1/4 of the way down. She stands sideways stretches her sides so that just one eye , the left one is peeping out the window . And there you have it. She has plenty of shape up the top without being down on her heels.

I wonder if someone could expand this topic specifically to the international tango. We have been working on the body positions with our instructor.

For lady the frame is quite different. Rather than a more backward poise, I am now very forward, with my weight quite forward. To me it almost feels like an up and over while quite behind my partner. I am still trying to figure this out because it is so different from say waltz or foxtrot frame. I also wonder in competition how to switch from the frame of waltz to tango, quickly.

We are also working on a closed hip in a promenande position....hard!