Jonathan. When you say three is the downbeat is this not American Style. In International we say continue to rise on two and three then lower at the end of three. We hold the sway all the way through three not straightening untill we move into the next veriation. That would make three the maximum sway. Regards Joan.

Joan. I can't answer your question but I looked up the defenition of Downbeat: The beat given the strongest accent at the beggining of the bar.

Speaking as a musician, that is absolutely correct. However, it may not be complete.

Some music, notably mambo, consists of several different instruments playing with different accents, so that the strongest accent might be on 2 rather than on 1 for some of those instruments. Montez gave a lecture 3 years ago at the BYU Dance Camp, in which he played the rhythms of the different instruments that produce mambo, and he demonstrated that very nicely.

Jerry

Re: My partner can¡¯t find the beat!
Posted by Don
12/9/2005
5:55:00 AM

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Krister. This may help. THE TIME SIGNAL
for the Rumba straight from the book.
The Time Signal is 4/4 with the predominent percussive accents associated with the 4th beat of each bar. This may come as a surprise to some
who think it is the 1st beat. It is essential that at first you find a Rumba which is played correctly. If your partner can pick one in this dance he will be able to pick the first beat in any dance. Stick with it. Some Rumbas are much easier than others. Try at first about 25 bars per minute.


I copy and paste the above. So now for different music the predominent percussive accents will be on different beat?

Eyfoi. Different accentuation if the music is a Foxtrot than a true Rumba. I have "The lady in Red" sung by the composer Chris De Burgh who probably never thought that he was writting a beautifull Rumba. It has the louder 4 followed by a quieter 1. I have Elton John singing "Something about the way you look Tonight" and "Blessed " also by the same composer. Of the three The lady in Red "has the percussive beat in the right place. The answere to the question is yes. Making sure you move only the hip on one. You know this I am sure, but for the sake of the less informed I put that in. I did see a double honours dance Modern and Latin. The Modern did a Foxtrot whilst in the middle the other winning couple did the Rumba. Both to the same Foxtrot music of course.

I actually didn't say that beat 3 is the downbeat of the measure, as is implied by the way you phrased that.

The word "downbeat" has a couple of different meanings, based on context. The dictionary definition is simply the first beat of the measure. When we talk about the downbeat in general terms, that's usually what we're referring to.

However, the term "downbeat" can also refer to the specific part of a single beat. In this context, we're talking about the initial moment the beat strikes, say, as opposed to the "upbeat", which for example might be the "and" count (or for that matter, any moment occurring within the duration of the beat that's not actually the true beginning point).

For the most part, in this discussion I have been using the term "downbeat" in the latter context. I'm not saying that 3 is the downbeat of the measure. 1 is by definition always the downbeat, regardless of the musical accents, and regardless of which beat may be perceived as the "strong" beat.

When I say "downbeat of 3", I am describing the initial point in time when beat 3 is struck, to discern it from the duration of beat 3.

Just to clarify, this is not an American vs. Int'l issue, since both styles use the same exact technique of movement. Footwork, rise & fall, sway, etc all work exactly the same in both styles. So with that out of the way...

The Alex Moore / ISTD description of sway is extremely oversimplified, ommitting not just the subtle nuances, but very important aspects of the timing which completely change the movement if interpreted literally. If I was forced to describe sway in such simple terms as one direction per step, then I'd agree with the ISTD -- straight, left, left (or straight, right, right). But the timing of sway is far more subtle, and so I think it's very misleading to oversimplify it the way they do. A more accurate way to describe sway would probably be similar to how they describe the rise & fall... "Commence on the end of 1, continue (or increase) through 2 and 3, and dissolve on the end of 3".

Now the description "end of" is also quite misleading. The common misconception is that it means the literal end of the time span -- that last fraction of a millisecond of the beat. In fact, "end of" is meant to be the later part of the beat -- nothing specifically measured, but for the sake of argument, we can probably say the second half of the time span, or everything from the "and" of 3 to the beginning of the next 1. That's the way the writers of the technique book intended it.

Of course, the writers' interpretation may not be entirely accurate, either. It's probably closer to the truth to say that the rise (and consequently the sway, which very closely coincindes with rise & fall) reaches its maximum on the downbeat of 3, and begins to dissolve throughout the entire remainder of the beat (although it may not be enough to become apparent to an observer until about half-way through).

In the end, here's what we know: When the moment of the downbeat of 1 occurs, we want to be both fully lowered and fully straightened. Prior to that, on the downbeat of 3, we were at the peak of our rise and at maximum sway. Somewhere in the interim, we must lower and dissolve the sway. The entire span of time is one beat. The longer you hold this position after the moment of the downbeat, the less time you have to complete the action, and the more abrupt it becomes. A smooth and graceful lowering and dissolve of sway needs at least half a beat, if not more, at Slow Waltz tempo.

Some may argue that the duration of lowering and dissolve of sway is closer to half a beat, while others (myself included) might prefer to think of it as closer to a full beat, or maybe somewhere in between. I imagine that's more a matter of our individual interpretations of what we think we're seeing, because we're all probably striving to do about the same thing. However, you can't really argue that the sway should be held throughout the entire duation of the beat. If you do, you're saying that the next count 1 begins in a swayed position. That's not just contrary to the book technique, it's awkward.

Regards,
Jonathan

Jonathan. All of the above just confirms the article written in a UK Ballroom Magazine that when Victor Sivester first introduced the Natural turn in 1922. It has been argued about ever since how it should be performed. It still goes on.

Jonathan, Thank you for solving a few questions that I have asked myself on the transition from sway to straight. This is free advice to your readers that has cost you lots of money ,years of pracice and hard work. Happy New Year. Dave

"Now the description "end of" is also quite misleading. The common misconception is that it means the literal end of the time span -- that last fraction of a millisecond of the beat. In fact, "end of" is meant to be the later part of the beat -- nothing specifically measured, but for the sake of argument, we can probably say the second half of the time span, or everything from the "and" of 3 to the beginning of the next 1. That's the way the writers of the technique book intended it."

Actually, "end of" in the technique book is not a description in terms of musical time at all, but a description in terms of the completeness of the step, defined for most steps as when the trailing foot passes to move into the next step. This is most clear in the foxtrot, where the numbers in the book obvioulsy correspond to steps, not beats. Retruning to waltz, the instruction to commence to rise end of 1 means that you should be just beginning to rise as your other foot passes the foot that took step 1. There is no direct instruction given for when that should happen in relation to the musical beat - there is a time value given for step 1, but no instruction as when the 1 beat period of time to be taken by step 1 should fall in relation to the first beat of the waltz measure.

Suomynona. Nothing will take the place of a one to one with a competent teacher For example the book says rise at the end of one. Which means we are already down on one. But with the prep step most of us are the same height as we will be on one. I think you can see what I am driving at. We have lost the lowering on three before we even start.Then if we are not carefull we may carry this through the remainder of our Waltz. To my way of thinking it is the continuous downward swing from three into one which sometimes gets lost. Just to go back, we rise at the end of one. Which would mean we are at our lowest at the beginning of one.But how do we arrive in that position. In other words without the lowerin on three we have no one. They must join. Reading from the book you wouldn't think so