CAN ANYONE PLEASE HELP SOLVE THIS PROBLEM MY PARTNER AND I ARE HAVING. I AM DANCING STANDARD AT A SILVER AND GOLD LEVEL. HOW DOES A MAN LEAD, AND THE LADY DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE RUNNING RIGHT TURN IN QUICKSTEP AND A NATURAL SPIN TURN IN QUICKSTEP. I ALWAYS MISTAKE THE RUNNING RIGHT TURN FOR A NATURAL SPIN TURN. WE HAVE TRIED MANY THINGS AND CAN'T SEEM TO MAST THIS.

This may be controversial, but I think it is best if the lady (follower) concentrates on staying with the man and _doesn't_ try to identify the variation being danced. I realise that you have been taught the steps and want to dance the figure correctly but the difference between figures can be very difficult to feel, may come very late in the figure and may be confused by minor changes for floorcraft reasons.

In this case the lady can only tell the difference as her RF closes to LF to either brush and step forward or to dance the heel turn. This doesn't leave much time for the brain to interpret the difference, lookup the pattern in the repertoire, and send the necessary commands to the feet. The lady should feel the man stepping further around her, thus driving her into the heel turn, and the momentum continues to turn rather than travel.

Do you have a mental picture of the RRT as a spin turn with a different ending? It may help isolate the RRT from the spin by thinking of it as a combination of natural pivot turn, open natural turn (as foxtrot) and running finish.

HTH

Howard

My wife and I went through this dilemma as well. We concentrated on several moments through both the steps to help her ID what was going on between the two (NST and RRT). Whether these are acceptable in medal tests I'm not sure. As always, each partner balance should be their own throughout both these steps.

Natural Spin Turn - As one poster has already stated (I think), the NST doesn't make the severity of turn that the RRT does (although my wife says this is not necessarily evident to her during dancing the figures)and the man's indicating footrise is late (indicating to the lady a brush rather than a heel turn like Ftrot, although sometimes she can't read that as well). The more important aspect (we think) is the sway. NST should have no sway. The combination of the length of time the leader is turning the lady and the lack of sway might help on this step. I also helped out by allowing my wife to feel that I have kept my balance ever so slightly to my right (her left)during the NST to indicate her weight is still on her left foot thus indicating to her to always come out with her Right foot (not that it always works that way..)

The Running Right turn - Simplisticly, just think opposite of what I have just stated for the NST . The turn is more severe - therefore the turning time is stretched vs the NST. I try indicate to her an early rise (as I go forward onto my R foot)hopefully indicating a Heel turn) and I sway into my left step to the side (which would be her RF closing to LF - heel turn ). How we help each other at this point is that during that sway, she can feel me every so slightly shift my balance to my left (her right) which indicates to her to shift her weight to her R foot. If we get past that point, she will come out with her left foot (which is also accompanied by a L shoulder leading (man's R shoulder lead).

We have found these points helpful. Please check with your professional instructor if these things are acceptable to him/her.

Hope this helps,

Pete

I think the man must play the leading role in dancing any figures. Of course, he may warn his lady about the next figure, practice again and again and the lady will gradually realize the differences.

However, the Natural Spin Turn (NST) and the Running Right Turn (RRT) have one difference in the 5th step of Lady. Man, from 1 to 6, are the same steps, but Lady:
- NST: LF back and slightly to side, backing LOD (continue with RF brushing).
- RRT: LF back, backing LOD (continue with a Heel Turn)

So, the role of Man is to lead his lady:
- in NST: LF slightly round man's RF
- in RRT: LF straight back, feel the rise through the body (no foot rise), in order to do the next Hell Turn

But, my words are only the theology of myself. It depends much on you, each one can find his own way to manage, right?

PantherSon

MSN

NST is an underturn and RRT is an overturn. You should sense the direction (& momentum) difference at the end of the fifth step.

Lynn. I think this one is an interesting one to look at. The lady has difficulty in disinguishing between a Running Right Turn in Quickstep and a Natural Spin Turn. Could the answer be that her partner is the problem because he is lowering on the first step of the Running Finish instead of staying up on the toe. Which makes it a technique error.

The dynamics of the 2 figures, are completely different

"However, the Natural Spin Turn (NST) and the Running Right Turn (RRT) have one difference in the 5th step of Lady. Man, from 1 to 6, are the same steps"

The man's steps 1-6 most definitely are not the same between the two figures.

We must start by realizing that the lady will be doing a heel turn in the running right turn, and so the entire evolution of the man's action from the descent on 3 (if not even earlier) through 4 and 5 must be organized towards creating that. This means that even if the steps are superficially similar on paper to those of a spin turn action, they are quite different in character of actual execution.

As a specific starting point, to prepare for the heel turn it is desirable to dance a much more literal and complete pivoting action on step 4 than the mere hint of a pivoting action one would use on 4 of a spin turn. This then should develop into a drive onto what Moore would call a "braced" or less bending knee on step 5, causing the lady to straighten rather than flex her arriving knee and centralize herself on an axis that will close her feet and cause a heel turn.

The running finish part obviously occurs after the point where the heel turn has been realized or not, so while issues there might need attention they do not contribute to the success or failure in communicating the intent as a spin turn or running right turn.

"Anonymous. It might have been better if you had gone more into that 5th step and the difference between it in the Spin Turn and the Running Right. In one it is Toe with no lowering. In the other it is a TH.
The Spin Turn is the one that is often danced wrong by the lady. They often forget it is a toe only, even though the mans steps are HT."

What you have a described is a result, not a cause. Get the causes right, while dancing with a partner with the sound habits, and this footwork difference will automatically result.

That's why my post concentrated on the causes of the difference between the two figures, and not on the incidental differences in the results.

I suppose you guys know that a Running Finish can follow a Curving Feather, or the first three of a Natural or a Back Lock following the first three of a Natural.. In every case you more often than not, with the unskilled. see the wrong foot work which should be a Toe only. What you will see is a Toe Lower which is wrong. That is what I was pointing out. The first step of the Running Finish is for the man a Toe. And for the lady it is....