I'm asking a question about something i thought i understood - but now i'm not so sure.
Take foxtrot. Let's assume we dance 2 slows (slow, slow) using foot placements on beats 1 and 3. (please let's not get bogged down with 'steps aren't exactly on the beats', and 'steps start when the feet close' and so on, as i think this question doesn't require us to go there).
So how would you dance slow, &slow and how would you dance slow &quick.
On which beats (half beats included) would you make your foot placements?

Wihtout gettin too far bogged down, I'd point out that a foxtrot slow usually has the foot placement much closer to its second beat than it's first - the feet would really be landing more on 2 and 4 than on one and three.

Now in practical terms, my advice for handling a S-and timing would be the following: first dance it through a few times as two quicks, until you have all the actions and overall amount of available time secure. Now just shift the emphasis to give the first step more time than the second. What we are looking for here is an artistic feel, not mathematical precision.

Phil. One slow = two beats. Break the two beats into four half beats. Use three half beats to step and one half beat to bring the rear foot under the body and repeat if you wish.This is what you have been doing without realizing it all along. Once you have that sorted out there should be no trouble with the quicks. Simple explanation isn't it. Good Luck.

When a musician learns to read music, they also learn how to play the musical notation (such as a dotted note)with 'mathematical' precision. that doesn't mean they play with this mathematical precision all the time - they play artistically of course. but this artistic interpretation is based on an understanding of good solid basics.
Quickstep - thanks for your response, but i am still not sure. when you say use three half beats to step, would this be, for example, first step on beat 1 and second step on beat 2&? Then when you say bring the foot under the body for the half beat, would this mean place the foot on 3 for another slow.? So slow & slow would mean foot placements on 1, 2&, 3 and 1 again?

"When a musician learns to read music, they also learn how to play the musical notation (such as a dotted note)with 'mathematical' precision. that doesn't mean they play with this mathematical precision all the time - they play artistically of course. but this artistic interpretation is based on an understanding of good solid basics."

The difference is that for a musician, the thing that matters (when the note starts and stops) is easily determined and controlled.

For a dancer doing foxtrot, it is quite certain that the exact time when the foot is placed is NOT a factor of primary artistic or technical attention. There's a right answer, but nobody can really tell you what it is, because the proper attention is elsewhere - on the body timing. You need to look at the big picture and get that right, which will result in getting the foot time right "by feel" rather than by math. Because trust me, the math is far uglier than you want to see... not nice fractions at all!

Phil,

You would have been wise to ask your question in the context of another dance, since Foxtrot is obviously going to engage these two guys in a conversation about ideas which are totally irrelevant to your question. So to avoid such a burden altogether, let's place it in a context where Foxtrot foot timing is not a factor: Rumba.

As a rule of thumb, the "and" count takes the last half-beat away from whichever count precedes it. So, for example, a "slow" count which is normally two full beats, when followed by an "and", has a half beat stolen from it, and the resulting duration is one and a half beats. In musical terms, this is a dotted quarter followed by an eighth note.

So yes, the answer to your question would be step on 1, then the "&" after 2.

Now if you want to go back to Foxtrot to see how that applies, it's actually quite interesting. If you were to dance an "elongated" Foxtrot slow whereby the foot strikes on beat 2, then the timing of your foot placements would be "(1), 2& 3, 4" for S&QQ rhythm. (The number 1 is in parenthesis to indicate that it doesn't have a step).

However, when it comes to S&QQ (or S&S&) rhythm, depending on the exact quality of the steps, chances are you're not going to be using the elongated slow anyway. The rhythm is becoming so abstract that it's bordering on unreadable, even when executed precicely. So when it comes to "S&" rhythm, one should actually just step squarely on the 1 (or 3) beat.

Remember that with "Slow &" rhythm, you're taking two steps over the course of two beats. It is, in fact, simply a variation of "QQ" rhythm. And as a result, much of the reason for elongating the slow is diminished. If you think of "S&" as being a variation of "QQ", then it makes perfect sense to take the first step on count 1, not 2.

I hope this answers your question.

Regards,
Jonathan

"Remember that with "Slow &" rhythm, you're taking two steps over the course of two beats. It is, in fact, simply a variation of "QQ" rhythm. And as a result, much of the reason for elongating the slow is diminished. If you think of "S&" as being a variation of "QQ", then it makes perfect sense to take the first step on count 1, not 2."

I like the idea of treating it as a variation on QQ - in fact, that was what I had originally suggested, and doing the variability of the variation by "feel" rather than by "math"

I don't think it's at all resolved that four quicks QQQQ would actually land on beats 1234... in fact, I think it's pretty well established that they wont, but will land a bit after those beats.

Which is why I argue for seperating the "amount of time" "timing" from the details of execution. Get the right "amount of time" and get the feel which gives the right accents.

Phil. I've always accepted that in the Foxtrot Feather Step we count the first step as slow and. This gives us two beats for one step. being that the foot arrives under the body it must be given a beat value or part of a beat value.. This is why John Wood on his tape said we split the two beats into four 1/2 beats. We use three halves to step and one half for the moving leg to arrive under the body . It must arrive and pass to be able to continue dancing. Whilst this is going on we have the shoulders dancing a different timing to the feet. Where it gets interesting is that on the second quick of the Feather he also splits that beat, and arrives with his LF under the body, which he calls a neutral position, This is on a quick and count. And is now ready to do the first step of the Reverse Turn. The lesson to be learnt here is that is what we do without thinking about it because there is simply no other way of doing it.If I move my rear leg forward it is going to pass under my body it must take some part of the beat. It doesn't disappear and reappear of and on the radar. Does that make sense or not. Be like me and just dance it, and let those that want to make it something more than it is be my guest.

In Foxtrot a slow = 2 beats, and a quick = 1 beat. So you would break a slow into 2 quicks. Not 4

A slow is twice as long as a quick.
A quick is half the time of a slow.
So depending on the dance a slow can be one beat and a quick two half beats, or a slow is 2 beats and a quick is one beat.

KISS, keep it simple.

4 x 4. Music S. S. = 1 bar of music
QQQQ = 1 bar of music
S QQ = 1 bar of music
QQ S = 1 bar of music
If you dance a Syncopated Chasse in the Foxrot the first step will be a
S which = 2 beats followed by Q and Q. which again is 1 bar of music. Don't make the mistake of dancing the first step as a Q. it will not fit the music.