I treat '&' or "a" takes beat value from its immediate previous beat all along despite I thought if time allows, triplet or other expression may add more color in the presentation;
varying count of tatata... are better in personal character.
Now another version is that it takes time value from the immediate following beat more often , I felt confused because of that use this common rule we still can express what we want to accent or speed up .
I think , I must ignor or not understand something very important when I tried to solve this problem, such as dance style, music phrase or the figure of preceding / following . personal favor / ability ? Help.Thanks.

I don't think the confusion should really be if the "&" takes time from the previous or following beat; usually it's the previous.

The real issue is that, with the exception of tango and some rhythmic accents in the others, the standard dances are NOT ABOUT FOOT RHYTHM. Instead, the are about BODY MOVEMENT. Unless you are doing a rhytmically accented passage, the timing you should be showing is not the timing of your feet, it's the timing of your body's swings and drives.

If we say SQQ, or S+QQ, whatever, we are not talking about the timing of the feet, instead we are talking about a "roadmap" with implications for the feel of the action in the body. But it cannot be literally applied to the timing of the feet!

Hi ylchen, welcome back. Allow me to actually answer your question (something that doesn't happen around here much lately, it seems).

In the typical ballroom counting method, "ands" and "a's" are "piggyback" counts, meaning they occupy some of the space of a previous count.

Technically speaking, it's impossible to borrow time from a beat that hasn't yet occurred. A piggyback count such as an "and" cannot physically occupy any time within the span of a beat until that beat has begun occurring. For example, beat number one spans the time from its initial strike right up through (but not including) the initial strike of beat two. So an "and" count landing 1/2 beat after count 1 would still be occupying part of the space of beat 1... the second half of it, to be more specific. That half-count could not be said to be a part of beat two unless it occurs after the point in time at which beat two begins (or at the very least, crosses over into that space).

You must remember, however, that this is strictly a musical/mathematical perspective. And while technically correct, it doesn't necessarily coincide with how you as a dancer might perceive the rhythm. As it happens, the closer that piggyback count moves up against the following count, the more you will perceive it as being connected to the following beat. Even though it technically occupies a small part of the tail end of the space of time owned by the previous count, you will still hear it as being grouped together with the following count.

The simplest example of this is the basic Samba rhythmic pattern, "1--a2--a3--a4". Even in print you can see how those "a's" appear to be grouped together with the following beat (eg "a2"), where in fact each "a" is really occupying space which is part of the previous count (eg "1--a").

This perception is even stronger for dancers, since body movement is inherently time-consuming. As a result, the closer two movements are together in time, the more interconnected they become, to the point where they can almost feel like a single movement. Two body movements occurring just 1/4 beat apart will feel like an inseparable and interconnected pair, and so you may very well think of them as being a part of the same beat, even when they are not.

Regards,
Jonathan

Hi Yichen
if you're having trouble interpeting exactly what your teacher wants when he/she asks for S &Q Q or whatever, or if your partner is inclined to interpret it slightly differently, can i suggest that you ask your teacher to clap out the rhythm to the music. Or clap it with your partner.
You may find that just clapping out the rhythm will, in itself, give you some feel for how to dance it. It will certainly make it clear, to you and your partner, exactly what the rhythm is.

You are right there. both John Wood and Richard Gleave and partners on their instruction videos both recomend counting aloud dancing to the music. That is both the man and lady.
If I might add this method of teaching in the armed forces has been used for ever. Marching , rifle drill and so on. Even when the troop know the drill backwards it is still done that way.
In Latin our teacher regularly taps out the timing with those wooden things that are used in Latin orchestras. Most times on the second beat in Rumba on which we have to get the foot down right on the beat, after delaying the step before which is 4. 1. this is the way it is done these days. Very slick.
From Blackpool. Has anyone checked the tempo being played.

Assuming the videos I watched are correct.

And would be the midpoint of a beat. And 2 for example would occur midway between 1 and 2. A would be 3/4 way through the beat. a 2 would occur 3/4 of the way between 1 and 2.

Some people teach Waltz teachnique as and 1 and 2 and 3, with and being the placement of the moving foot on the floor and the number being when the other foot arrives at the stepping foot and the body is over the stepping foot.

Sorry to chip in here but the count is 1 and 2 and 3 and. Not (and) 1.
What confuses most is that at the end of 1. the moving foot comes underneath the body on the count of (and). Andrew Sinkinson teaches that we should be able to lift that foot clean off the floor at that point, Then flex the knee on the standing foot and send the other foot out to the side on the solid beat of two. This is the excercise he made us all do professionals included. I hope I have written this so that it is easy to understand. So again there is a completely neutral position on the count (and) at the end of the 1st step where the leg is under your own hip.
Thats a lot different to the way it was taught a few years ago. About 20 years ago.

"Sorry to chip in here but the count is 1 and 2 and 3 and. Not (and) 1."

"So again there is a completely neutral position on the count (and) at the end of the 1st step where the leg is under your own hip."

You seem to be leaving out the time for the moving foot to move into position...

If you call the closing "and", and presumably believe that the arrival or perhaps weighting of a step is on the number itself, where does the time for the moving foot to move from closed into a new position foot come from?

Obviously, for this process to be complete by the next downbeat, it would have to occur during the remainder of the "and".

The challenge here is being clear about using a name-word for the start of a fractional period, vs. how you refer to the entirity of its duration...

What happens on the strike of the number is not the entirity of what happens before the next number. Thus you want to add the "and". But what happens on the strike of the and is not the entirety of what happens before the next number, thus you have to allow for that period of time, too...

It seems to me that a book "step" would actually begin just after the strike of the "and", include the half beat of time between the "and" and the next beat, land on the next beat, and include the half beat of time from the beat to the following "and". Or at least it would, if you were trying to have metronomic foot action...

Jonathan. I think you word piggyback is an excellent way of describing an (and or a )
I wish you hadn't mentioned that headache dance , the Samba. I counted Voltas' s and Boto Fogos for years as 1a2a3a4. and Botofogos as 1a2. Then found out they are 3/4 1/4 1. for the Botofogas and two bars of Voltas is 3/4 1/4 3/4 1/4 3/4 1/4. 1. Having seven steps that's why the 1 is at the end to complete the two bars of music. A Wally Laird trained person straightend me out on that one.. International Style of course.
Great Site. You must put in hours of work there.

"I counted Voltas' s and Boto Fogos for years as 1a2a3a4. and Botofogos as 1a2. Then found out they are 3/4 1/4 1. for the Botofogas and two bars of Voltas is 3/4 1/4 3/4 1/4 3/4 1/4. 1.

I trust you realize that your old way and your new way are actually the same.

If you count all the sixteenths it becomes clear

1e+ a 2e+ a 3e+ a 4e+ a 1e+ a 2e+ a 3e+ a 4...

(prononounced 1-ee-and-uh)